[PRCo] Re: "sawmills"
Fred Schneider
fschnei at supernet.com
Thu Sep 30 13:45:52 EDT 2004
Ed Tennyson ... some of my comments to John Swindler and this list
deserve your input too. You can respond to me directly, if you wish,
at <fschnei at supernet.com>. If you want to educate all the others on
the mailing list, send your answers to Derrick Brashear
<shadow at dementia.org> and ask him to post it to the pittsburgh-railways
list.
I guess I forgot to mention Dallas. Up along the expressway to the
north is a great Jewish deli run by a Japanese family ... they make
fabulous lachs and eggs for breakfast. And Roy King took us to a great
Mexican place for dinner. (And no I'm not but that doesn't matter....)
Oh, you wanted to know about DART? The north line is finished to Plano
(actually to a parking lot on the north edge of Plano, there is no
parking near the central Plano stop). The northeast line reaches
Garland. The construction on the northwest line has begun and it is
being used for the first few blocks beyond Union Station when even take
place at the stadium. I had no knowledge at all until a crossed over in
on an expressway and saw all this copper that was orange on top!
Dallas is one of those places to which I have trouble relating. I was
first there (thanks to the army) in 1959. I remember going out to visit
an old time (now dead) railfan named Walter Donaldson, who lived just
north of Southern Methodist University in a new suburban home. Those
suburban homes were what killed the trolleys ... the buses to the new
suburbs were running only partly loaded down the same streets with
trolleys and the entire trolley system only went out about three or four
miles in any direction from downtown. Like San Jose, Phoenix, Houston,
Tucson and many other southwestern cities, Dallas was a small place
during the trolley era. Roy King moved out to the country on the north
side in the 1960s and remembered running over an occasional armadillo on
his street at night. That might have been five or six miles out. Now
it is suburbans 15 miles out. I remember driving over the turnpike
(today it's free) from Dallas to Fort Worth, and almost 30 of the 35
miles was open country ... today it is solid suburbs from Dallas to
Forth Worth .... Roy told me last year of driving to a meeting in
Arlington at 5:00 PM and taking more than an hour and a half to go 20
miles! Still, Dallas today is miles and miles of suburbs looking for
an anchor. But go there and ride DART. There is some 65 mph running
with light rail cars on the Garland line .... much faster than the
commuter trains to Fort Worth.
The McKinney Avenue Transit Authority has reached the public trough ...
they solved the problem of not having enough volunteers to run the cars
by hiring three motorman who work Monday through Friday. DART passes on
subsidy money to them to run their heritage cars ... a pseudo Birney
and a turtle roof Stone and Webster car (both resurrected bodies that
did run in Dallas), a Melbourne W2, a former Washington or Boston PCC
third hand from the Tandy subway in Fort Worth, and a hulk of a freight
motor from the Northern Texas Traction Co. being rebuilt into a dinner
interurban car. They built an extension last year to connect with one
of the north side DART subway stations ... City Point or City View or
City Something-or-other. McKinney no longer collects fares but they
willingly accept donations.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your question about the mechanics of the NO cars ... the trucks are
identical to those on the SEPTA recreated PCCs (pseudo PCC?). Both
have AC motors but I don't know if they are rated identically. SEPTA
retained the three pedal scheme but New Orleans has a joy stick hand
control. I asked one lady if she also worked out of Carrollton station
and her answer was yes. The clue was simply that the didn't sit down to
run the car on Canal.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Did not take time to observe all the lines in Los Angeles ... was only
away from Marie for a a month and a half and by the time we got to L. A.
, I was already itching to get home. Don Duke told me that the average
daily ridership on the Blue Lone (Subway to Long Beach) is 40,000; Green
Line (the Century Blvd. line that goes no where ) is 30,000; the first
chunk of the Gold Line to Rosemeade Avenue east of Pasadena is 20,000,
and the Red Line (the heavy subway) is 120,000. Don will tell you that
these are all captive riders but that may show his prejudices. I
suspect that the Gold Line rider counts could easily triple when the
other end is opened into the barios of East Los Angeles. I'm basing
that on Don's comments about captive riders and my own knowledge of the
income status in that part of the city.
What I do not know and that which I wish I had knowledge are the rider
counts on parallel bus routes before the LRT opened. Twenty years ago
East First Street was probably the heaviest bus route and before that it
was LATL's heaviest car line ... and that is why I suspect the Gold Line
into that same turf has to succeed. Wilshire Blvd was the heaviest bus
line on the west side but taken together, Wilshire, Hollywood, Sunset
and the San Fernando valley lines (One from LATL and three from PE) were
probably the heaviest routes on the west side ... and that is the Red
Line subway today. About 1980 SCRTD was running a rush hour heady of
close to one minute on Wilshire. The fact that the subway moves 120,000
a day thus comes as no great surprise.
Pacific Electric ran a train to Long Beach about every 20 minutes. The
Blue Line headway is about twice that and the trains today are much
long. That comes as a surprise. But if I lived in Long Beach and had
to go into the downtown every day, I sure wouldn't waste time on the
Harbor Freeway. Maybe that explains its success.
The Green line is the one that surprises me. It even was ruled out of
LAX ... you need to take a connecting bus. I just don't understand the
30,000 a day but it may be a social factor beyond my comprehension.
(Reads what one group of people will do that others will not do.)
Their riding may also have something to do with high gasoline prices in
Southern California. When I was there, they were not high .... $2.25
maybe. (Considering that I do a lot of driving every year in Europe
where one pays $4.50 to $5.50 a gallon, I cannot consider $2.25 high.)
The California prices would not be a serious deterrent to a German or
French driver ... they have about as many cars per capita as we do.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Did I get to Denver or Salt Lake City? I've only been away from my wife
for 12 weeks this summer. I don't think Carol would allow you to go for
two weeks without having words with you! I did both of those in 2002
during another month-and-a-half odessy. I'm reminded of all my older
friends who complained that the abandonments in the 30s, 40s and 50s
were happening so fast they they simply could not get to all of the
lines before their demise. Well, I cannot keep up with all the new
ones. There are a few new ones in France that also need my attention.
It is great, as a railfan, to see what is happening. The economist in
me has trouble with some of the operations. I haven't quite accepted,
as some of my friends have, that it is perfectly all right to treat this
as a "free" service like fire and police protection and garbage
removal. Maybe that is because no one has fed me the right numbers.
I guess I need to know fully allocated costs and fully allocated
benefits ... I need the value of lost taxes to support parking lots, the
cash value of cleaner air, the increased taxable value of downtown with
rail (Portland and Houston and Toronto may make good examples).
I think it is time to end Ed Tennyson to the distribution.....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John Swindler wrote:
>Thanks for the trip report, Fred.
>
>Very interesting. Another 'keeper'.
>
>Minneapolis reports 16,700 average weekday passengers, with peak of 24,700
>on 27 Aug. The line to Mall of America and airport is to open on Dec. 4th.
>
>Couple weeks ago Houston was reporting around 26,000 per weekday, with
>ridership on upward trend. To put this in perspective Pittsburgh's light
>rail system hauls low 20K per day with more then twice the number of
>vehicles. The Houston line was built with no federal funds. Tom Delay,
>representative from Houston suburbs, had put restriction in federal
>legislation to prohibit use of federal funds for Main St. light rail line.
>Houston's next line may also be built with local funds because of continuing
>political opposition. Houston is proposing four additional extensions.
>
>Problem with initial ridership projections is that methodology is dictated
>by Federal Transit Administration, who claim bus rapid transit and light
>rail will attract same patronage levels. This affects the number of cars
>ordered. Then when actual ridership greatly exceeds projections,
>overcrowding occurs. There was a recent article in Charlotte Observer that
>identified individual at FTA that was mandating a decrease in Charlotte's
>ridership projections.
>
>Which also probably relates to overcrowding you saw on new Canal St. line.
>
>Question: Did you get to Dallas, Fred? What's happening with propose
>northwest line? Is it under construction yet??
>
>Question: are the new Canal St. cars and the overhauled cars for rt. 15 in
>Philadelphia mechanically the same, if not identical?
>
>Question: did you have a chance to observe the Blue Line and Green Line
>ridership in LA? Have seen reports of overcrowding on both of these lines,
>and was curious if you had any observations.
>
>Seattle has started construction on their light rail line. Or at least
>awarded contracts.
>
>Sacramento has construction underway to Folsom, as you mentioned. Also a
>further extension of South Line is under construction and there is a
>proposal for line to northwest to serve airport.
>
>Did you get to either Denver or Salt Lake? Both also have ongoing
>construction.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>>From: Fred Schneider <fschnei at supernet.com>
>>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org, Bill Vigrass
>><billvigrass at hillintl.com>, Allman Rich <trolleydoc at aol.com>, Bruce Bente
>><bbente at cytechusa.com>, Dennis Cramer <dfc1 at alltel.net>, don duke
>><trainbook at earthlink.net>, John F Bromley <johnfbromley at rogers.com>,
>>"K.F. Groh" <Webster1214 at webtv.net>, joel lubenau
>><105leb439bmt at earthlink.net>, elmer fry <elmerfry at desupernet.net>, phil
>>craig <pcraig at bechtel.com>, Roy King <loking at sbcglobal.net>, Russell E
>>Jackson <JacksoRE at stvinc.com>
>>Subject: [PRCo] Re: "sawmills"
>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:08:32 -0400
>>
>>Harold:
>>
>>Were you in Kenosha on August 18th? I thought I might have seen you.
>>Or your double?
>>
>>And for all of you:
>>
>> here are some of my railfan opinions from the recent
>>six-week-long odessy: Opinions are in order visited ... I note that
>>most of the negatives are up front and most positives are later on.
>>Professional comments are welcome.
>>
>>Cleveland: Stopped to ride the lake front extension of the former
>>Shaker Rapid. Very little business on a weekday. Built to revitalize
>>the lake shore and serve the museums. Doesn't work well. Shaker
>>Heights is not the same place I remember from 1959 or 1969 or 1983.
>>Herb Brannon can add his comments.
>>
>>Chicago: We stopped to see and ride the subway from the Loop to Midway
>>Airport. Impressive loads and high speeds. Serves a part of the city
>>previously without high speed transit. Some of us would not find the
>>neighborhoods warm and friendly. Also went through the Skokie Shops and
>>had lunch with Walter Keevil of CTA.
>>
>>Kenosha: Interesting for those who like PCC cars painted in strange
>>colors. Intended to serve a lot of new condominiums and the train
>>station. I didn't see anything resembling heavy loads. There is also
>>some sentiment toward extending it a few miles west to an Indian
>>casino. Harold G can fill us in.
>>
>>Minneapolis looks like it is going to be a worthwhile investment. Cars
>>are really classy. Middle class neighborhoods. It may be a lot slower
>>to build up than other cities. I never saw any exceptional loads, not
>>even in the rush hours. The airport may be the real draw and that
>>wasn't open yet.
>>
>>Tacoma: I don't understand why anyone would build a trolley line
>>connecting a train station with downtown when they are not permitted to
>>run inbound commuter trains. They run a _free_ service, using two Skoda
>>cars out of a fleet of three, seven days a week connecting parking lots
>>at a stadium with parking lots downtown. Load factors are around 50%.
>>Weird. This is a great example of treating transit the same as police
>>and fire protection.
>>
>>Seattle's dockside line was nice ... had never seen it before. Also a
>>chance to eat seafood again at Ivar's restaurant. I note that the line
>>is in jeopardy because the carbarn is on land needed for a park. The
>>crew we had attempted to short turn the car early for a smoke break and
>>were visibly upset to find that not everyone agreed to not being taken
>>where they paid to go. And when we got there, the conductor told us in
>>clear English not to waste her time in getting off the car. Public
>>relations at its best. Within seconds a butt was hanging out of her
>>mouth. But it is a neat little operation.
>>
>>Portland's Interstate Avenue line looks like it will settle in to be a
>>useful line. But what else would one expect in Portland. It has to be
>>the local mentality. Downtown is still a destination where people go to
>>shop, to be entertained, to eat. They actually have department stores
>>with display windows. Remember them? Maybe I'm missing something, but
>>it [Portland] looks like a neat place to live.
>>
>>Sacramento's South Line is much busier than I expected. And so are all
>>the other lines in Sacramento. A considerable amount of traffic has
>>built up over the last decade. And the line to the east has been
>>extended two more stations since 1992. Folsom (remember Johnny Cash's
>>tune on Folsom Prison) is the ultimate destination. The used San Jose
>>cars were in the yard, still not repainted.
>>
>>San Francisco? Amazing to see construction on 3rd Street to recreate
>>the Market Street Railway #16 line that was abandoned in 1941. And it
>>probably will haul people. How can you go wrong in a city with 700,000
>>people squeezed into about 40 square miles.. (Rhetorical, no question
>>mark) We also rode the BART extension to the airport.
>>
>>San Jose? The northwest line has been cut to a car every 30 minutes (I
>>think it was about 10 when it first opened). The new route to Alum Rock
>>runs nearly empty cars about every ten minutes. One of the transit
>>police described the east side of San Jose as the worst part of town but
>>I think there might have been some prejudice in his heart. I would say
>>middle class to lower middle class and heavily ethnic. There is a huge
>>mall in Milpitis on the line but it didn't seem to have a lot of traffic
>>coming or going.
>>
>>Los Angeles? I hear that the new Gold Line to Pasadena and beyond (the
>>old Santa Fe mainline once trod by the Super Chief, the Chief, the El
>>Capitan and the motor car to San Bernardino) moves about 20,000 people a
>>day. They've now awarded the contract for the 9.6 kilometer extension
>>into East Los Angeles. That end should haul like gang busters. I
>>suspect, however, that the lack of a good downtown distribution system
>>will handicap the line, which now ends upstairs by the train platforms
>>at Union Station instead of convenient to the Red Line subway several
>>flights down. The connection is similar to a person coming entering
>>30th St. Station, Philly, on Amtrak and needing to get down into the
>>30th St. station of the subway. Hard to photograph ... maybe the best
>>picture would be the old Santa Fe bridge over Arroyo Seco and the
>>Pasadena Freeway if you can find out how to get there without walking on
>>the freeway. The portion of the line in the middle of the Foothills
>>Freeway is also nice, if you have a helicopter. There are several great
>>views in Pasadena where apartment buildings are being built over the
>>tracks. The whole LAMTA system moves about 210 rail passengers a day
>>plus the railroad commuters on Metrolink.
>>
>>The heritage line in San Pedro is worth a visit ... two reconcocted
>>Pacific Electric 500s running as a commercial public transit operation.
>>The operator is a group of transit consultants under the Herzog name.
>>
>>San Diego? The fleet has aged ... much of it is up to the midlife
>>overhaul point. It is a huge fleet. You guys need to see it. Much of
>>the paint has faded (those who liked Pittsburgh in the 1960s would
>>understand), but in San Diego much of the fading is due to chemicals
>>used to remove graffiti. Two years ago I saw the Santee line ending in
>>the middle of the desert. Today it ends in the middle of a shopping
>>center ... it is a challenge to get the trolley with the right store
>>fronts. The connection between Mission San Diego stop and El Cajon on
>>the east line looks like it could be ready to open in a few months ...
>>rail is done and catenary is mostly up... some great curving bridges and
>>a short subway. I was told by a supervisor that many trips run late
>>due to loading handicapped riders (remember when Washington DC could not
>>open the busiest subway station in 1976 because of two handicapped
>>people a day?). I suggested that maybe the schedules need to be
>>adjusted???? The answer was, it will be done after the green line opens
>>(i.e. the line from Old Town to El Cajon will be broken off the line
>>
>>
>>from San Ysidro and renamed green. Sneaked onto a parking garage upper
>
>
>>deck on the Old Town line ... just off the end of the airport runway.
>>The vertical clearance with the wheels down on the landing jets seemed
>>to be somewhere between 30 and 125 feet ... I'm glad I'm not a pilot
>>landing there. But it did make for interesting pictures of light rail
>>cars. If I had stayed long enough I might just have gotten a jet and an
>>LRV in the same picture. (I didn't want to stay around long enough to
>>have someone enforce the NO VIEWING signs.
>>
>>Houston has a VERY IMPRESSIVE light rail operation. Sort of like the
>>first line in San Diego which was built in the right corridor. Weekday
>>patronage is in the high 30,000 to low 40,000 range with an all-time
>>peak day exceeding 60,000. Weekends, of course, are lower but headways
>>are half as often. I saw crush loads on Saturday evenings and 50% loads
>>on Sunday about lunch time. Why so busy? It connects Houston College,
>>Rice University, three or four hospitals, the stadium that replaced the
>>Astrodome, a major park and zoo, and downtown. In other words, it goes
>>somewhere. We had a late dinner downtown on Saturday evening with Rich
>>Krisak, the Senior Manager of Rail Operations, who told us that it was
>>only beginning to get crowded at 9 PM. The accidents? They had the
>>59th on the Sunday I was there. Why? I blame it on Texas traffic signs
>>and signals which show limited parallels to U. S. and International
>>signage conventions. You have to be from Texas to know that two red
>>lights somewhere near the left turn lane mean no left turn and that they
>>overrule the green lights in the same intersection.
>>
>>New Orleans? The rebuilt Canal line is great if you are too young to
>>remember the old Canal line. But Canal was one of those lines which
>>probably never should have been abandoned. The new line uses about 25
>>cars. The old one scheduled 50 cars in the peak. The new line is
>>bogged down by tourists asking questions ... so slow that I watched
>>motormen (-women) get up, walk to the other side of the fare box, and
>>feed the dollar into it because it was faster than explaining. The old
>>route connected all the other bus and rail lines in the city ... it was
>>almost a moving sidewalk I need to study the map to see how well this
>>new service might do the same thing. If there was ever a route that I
>>think needs to go back to two-man cars, it would be Canal. Conductors
>>might just double the productivity of the fleet. It was strange riding
>>in a 1915 style car body with wooden seats but with air-conditioning and
>>resilient wheels, rubber chevron springs in the trucks, AC motors and
>>control. The one thing I learned on this trip about AC motors was that
>>their acceleration rate is linear almost to the maximum speed. A PCC
>>went to 15 mph by the other side of the intersection, 25 in a city
>>block, 42 in a mile. But those AC cars walk right up to 25 mph on Canal
>>Street at a constant rate. (And the AC cars in Houston are governed to
>>66 mph, are allowed 40, and I saw 45 with almost a flat acceleration
>>rate all the way to the top.
>>
>>Oh yes, we also went to Nelson BC. For those unfamiliar, this is a two
>>car operation using two former out buildings or chicken coups rebuilt as
>>streetcars. One is former Nelson 23, ex ex Cleveland Railway. The
>>other was a British Columbia Electric Birney, either used in North
>>Vancouver or Victoria. The east end of the line sits on top of an old
>>trolley loop, but the route stays on the south side of the CPR and goes
>>no where near the old city trolley line. Most humorous part is watching
>>the cars dodge automobiles in a shopping center parking lot ... I think
>>I might have several passable pictures of 23 with a Wal*Mart store
>>behind it. For those who have never been there, Nelson sits in the
>>Kootenay Mountains in southern British Columbia and is easier to reach
>>
>>
>>from the U. S. than from other parts of Canada. I wanted to go there in
>
>
>>2002 and backed off because it would add an extra day between Calgary
>>and Vancouver just to get there. The railroads also came from the south
>>except for a lake car float to the north to the CP mainline. Scenery is
>>majestic. And there is a slightly longer way to get in from Idaho using
>>a ferry boat across a very wide river (call it a lake at that point)
>>which is worth the extra hour or so. The town itself lives on tourists
>>... looks like a commercial time warp.
>>
>>Museums? We stopped at both of the Minnesota Transportation Museum
>>trolley museums in the Minneapolis area. They always put on a good
>>show. The one by Lake Como is now open summer evenings and they
>>actually get crowds. The other one to the west in Excelsior has an 1893
>>Laclade car ... a real peach. They run Thursday afternoons because the
>>adjacent farmers' market is open that day. And they also get crowds.
>>These people understand marketing and location. We left down before we
>>got a chance to ride their steamboat at Excelsior (Saturdays and Sundays
>>only).
>>
>>Rio Vista Junction? Bruce and I went there the same day that the ERA
>>convention swamped the place. Of course every car that moved was out.
>>They go on my list as one of the museums with enough perspective of
>>their customer market and of the future to survive. I'm not sure they
>>need 20 plus miles of track but it doesn't decay as fast in the desert
>>as it does in Pennsylvania. Oh yes, there were enough transportation
>>department workers from the Baltimore Streetcar Museum there that day
>>that we had a group picture.
>>
>>That's it in a nutshell. The chief record keeper reports that I put
>>9,700 miles on my car. It still runs just as nice as it did as 123,000
>>when I left home ... a tribute to Folksvagen engineering. Actually,
>>this was the first time I crossed the nation with any car that it didn't
>>find its way into a repair shop at some point in the trip.
>>
>>
>>Fred Schneider
>>
>>Harold Geissenheimer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello to Fred and every one
>>>
>>>Glad to have Fred back to set the records and
>>>history correctly.
>>>
>>>About "sawmills" I never heard of that expression.
>>>Wonder where it came from.
>>>
>>>Sometimes a fan hears a word from a motorman
>>>and regards it as the 100% truth. That was a
>>>problem with the old Railroad magazine Electric
>>>Lines which was often full of motorman rumors.
>>>
>>>Harold Geissenheimer
>>>
>>>Harold Geissenheimer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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