[PRCo] Re: 1.>--Dormont___Wye-__-2.>--Broadway

[James B. Holland]

Hi Ed!


An  X-Over  on W.Liberty inbound of the junction is there in this map  
--  beside and under the  *W*  in West Liberty.

Checking further reveals that a X-Over on WashRd. outbound of McFarland 
Does Not Exist.       From 1904--1909, much of WashRd. and W.Liberty 
were single track    ----    Thus    ----    an  X-Over is Not Needed to 
access the 42-line IB  --  the 42-line from McFarland to Biltmore became 
A Passing Siding for the Charleroi Interurban.       When double track 
was built on Wash Rd an  *actual__need*  for a crossover did not exist 
so the connection remained an outbound 42 to outbound 38 connection!!!!!!!

This then begs the question  --  when did 42/38 Owl service begin?       
Apparently not before 1934 as revealed by this map.       I would  
*guess*  that both the 38 and 42 lines ran all night in those 
days.        The Depression decade may have dropped ridership 
sufficiently that the 2-lines were combined for Owl service and  THEN  
the inbound turnout on Wash Rd was cut in  --  and of all things, they 
cut a trailing turnout into the already existent outbound track to make 
a 1.5-car length of single track across McFarland!!!!!!!


I have found these platt maps  Very__Interesting  and  *seemingly*  
quite accurate.       Were these maps used in tax assessments?       
You, Ed, brought it to our attention that PRCo was quick to remove a 
switch to render an abandonment  *official*  as then PRCo was not taxed 
on the remaining track since it  *couldn't*  be used   (((but the 
loophole of removing a crossing and then raising the very seldom used 
rail so flange hit the rail head and a car could pass across was Quite 
Innovative of PRCo at saving taxes!!!!!!!))).       I-F  these maps are 
used for tax assessment purposes, then PRCo Would See To It that they 
were kept current to save taxes and then they would seem to be quite 
reliable.


Using this info, let me Hazard A Guess!!!!!!!       According to the map 
the 42-line still had single track from Biltmore to midway between 
Hillsdale and Potomac  --  from this point it is double track into 
Beechview.       We are in the depths of The Depression.       The  
*City*  sees  *Broadway*  as an opportunity to get some Public Works 
Money for jobs and paving and if The City pushes this then it would be 
city responsibility to pay for paving the tracks as well    ----    or 
at least that argument could be put forth    ----    and actually the 
money is a Fed grant, Yes??!  --  so City is not out money either!! 
      Then PRCo used the opportunity  ((and theoretical or paper savings 
from not paying to pave Broadway))  to finish double tracking the 
42-line as well.


Twill be interesting to see what you discover in Your Archives  (((in 
Decades To Come)))  to support or disprove this postulation!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On your assertion that the location in the video is possibly not 
Broadway, I went back and looked in detail to make sure and looked 
several times.       The photographer was standing on the inbound side 
in the triangle formed by Broadway and Realty at Coast so the 
intersection is not visible.       An island existed in this approx. 
location in later years but is not evident in the video.       But the 
outbound stop at Belasco is Quite Clear with flashing yellow light on 
the end of the island, and even the inbound island is visible.       
Street looks Quite Fresh  --  Fairly New Concrete  --  and this is 
supposedly 1940--1941.       Even though the video is incredibly sharp 
the destination sign is not but it Does Appear To Be 42-Dormont.       I 
don't have actual photos of the location to compare.       The Twelve's 
are absolutely stunning  --  even the tens and eleven's look pristine  
--  like someone polishes the wings and headlight Daily!!!!!!!       So 
I believe this is Broadway in Beechview.

One Colin Strayer in Toronto came across the old 16mm Color films of 
someone who purposely photographed PCCs across the country at a very 
Early Stage.       This is the bulk of the video  --  Colin put together 
two little documentaries centering on TTC that are quite innovative and 
are included.       Ask around  --  someone there probably has  
*PCC__Trilogy*  --  my second tape deck is acting up and can't make 
copies now.


Jim__Holland



Edward H. Lybarger wrote:

> I think you're right...I just noticed that the track going inbound 
> becomes single track. But it is still irrelevant to the 1900s.      
> The track on West Liberty Avenue was changed considerably in those 
> thirty years. I also suspect that a X-Over south of the junction is 
> missing from the map! The plat maps are good but not infallible.
>
> Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org]On Behalf Of Bill
> Robb
> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:46 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Broadway__Dormont
>
>
> I think it dates from 1934. That map is from the Historic Pittsburgh 
> web site.
>
> http://digital.library.pitt.edu/maps/34v09ind.html
>
> Plate 16 has Dormont Jct:
>
> http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=34v09p16
>
> Plate 15 covers Broadway:
>
> http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=34v09p15
>
> Bill Robb
>
> --- "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> There is no inbound connection visible, underneath lettering or 
>> otherwise.      But this map is a 1950s or early '60s version...note 
>> the building labeled "Dormont Oldsmobile Co." and is irrelevant to 
>> the 1900s.
>>
>> The Charleroi route operated via West Liberty Avenue from October 10, 
>> 1903 through November 30, 1904. Beginning December 1, 1904, it used 
>> the new trolley tunnel and the new "Upper Line" -- the Beechview 
>> route. But on May 1, 1907, it returned to West Liberty Avenue.
>>
>> On July 14, 1909, inbound Charleroi cars were shifted to the 
>> Overbrook route; outbound cars didn't move there until November 1 1909.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> On Behalf Of Mark McGuire
>> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:46 AM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Broadway__Dormont
>>
>> It was my understanding that the Charleroi interurban ran on the 38 
>> line down West Liberty. In the map I don't see an inbound connection 
>> to the 42 line, unless it's under the words on the map.
>> Please set me straight on this as I think it's very important to know.
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> P.S.- I remember having a discussion about this previously but it 
>> escapes me now.
>