[PRCo] Re: WP

[Edward H. Lybarger]

Fred probably didn't read the short answers until he published the long
ones.  Repeat...the Phillips line signs were GREEN.  We have one.  And the
AV sign was black...there's one in my garage if we want to use rubbing
compound to get the overpaint off!

Confucious say:  Why use 100 words when you can use a thousand?

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org]On Behalf Of Fred
Schneider
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:26 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: WP


The correct answer is number 1.  The Back Line was a terminology that I
first saw in a small publication by Bob Brown in 1952.   For all I know,
Back Line may be a Browniism.  He used it to define the line from
Connellsville to Uniontown via Oliver, Philips and Leisenring Junction.
It may have nothing to do with company terminology ... or it may have.

The very dark blue is very hard to recognize unless the slide was perfectly
exposed ... sort of like recognizing Brunswick green on a Pennsylvania
Railroad locomotive.  You can see it but you cannot photograph it.   West
Penn also used that same unrognizeable blue on the New Kensington -
Tarentum - Natrona cars.  It was not used often ... probably only to
distinguish a route from something that used white on black in the same
terminal (Brownsville, Irwin, South Connellsville).

Routes 2 and 3 as listed below are identical.  The service you are thinking
of was Uniontown to Greensuburg via whatever.  Didn't matter, they both
used white on red.  I've seen pictures of cars on both mainline routes and
the signs looked alike.  Problem is there were very few pictures on the
line through New Stanton ... few means Steve Maguire took one unsharp
picture of two cars passing at County Home Siding sometime in 1939.  I've
been all over both cars with a magnifying glass and cannot read the signs
... but the length of the words on each line matches those on the Hecla
Junction route signs, i.e. UNIONTOWN, CONNELLSVILLE, SCOTTDALE, MOUNT
PLEASANT, GREENSBURG (from top town).  Apparently the destination Mount
Pleasant either meant we go very close to it and you can walk up the hill
or ride the connecting car or bus, or we go a few miles farther away and
you are permitted to take the connecting car or, after 1936, bus.   The
service was half-hourly from Uniontown to Scottdale; every other car
alternated routes north of Scottdale giving hourly service on each
north-end line.  When I say the signs are identical, they may have used a
window card next to the door saying Hecla or New Stanton, but I cannot see
it in any picture.    Does the confusion matter?  Probably not because most
interurban passengers travelled short distances.  If you were going from
Uniontown to Pittsburgh, you probably would have taken the Pennsy to
Greensburg and changed trains.  If you were going to Greensburg, you still
probably would have taken the PRR to save time.

You need to also know that West Penn ran the Latrobe cars through to Meadow
Mill, south of Scottdale.  They also ran extra cars from Greensburg to
Younstown on the line through New Stanton.  So really, they were giving 2
cars an hour from Greensburg to Foxtown and from Scottdale to Hecla.
Understand also that the only town with any population beyond the local
Greensburg city cars was Youngstown, and both routes were about two blocks
apart there.  The only part of the line with service less than 30 minutes
was Sand House Siding, South Greensburg to Hecla Junction, and from Foxtown
to New Stanton and Scotdale.

For what it is worth, most people did not go great distances until they had
an automobile and became convinced that it cost nothing but the gas to go
there.  In 1900 the typical American lived out his or her life within a ten
mile radius of home ... essentially what you could do with a horse and
buggy.  The Amish and conservative Mernnonites here in Lancaster still live
in a ten mile circle!  I cannot testify to how far West Penn's customers
traveled.  And we know that one component I would need to know the answer
was fabricated by West Penn to satisfy the state's desire for a report to
keep state workers busy making sure all the blanks were filled in.   But
here in Lancaster, Conestoga Traction Company did count passengers as well
as dollars.  Interestingly, in spite of four CTC routes exceeding 20 miles
in length, and only one suburban route under 6 miles, and a city population
that lived mostly within 1/2 mile of downtown, again passengers only went
short distances ... a hold over I guess from the buggy days.  When the
first zone fare was 5 cents, the company collected an average of 6 cents
per rider.  By the way, the longest ride would have been 75 cents and the
shortest complete route would have been 10 cents.  I think this shows that
you went to the nearest village to shop, and only went to the city if you
needed a fine suit of clothing or exotic Christmas gifts.   I think this
also gives some idea why it might not have been necessary to have separate
mainline signs on West Penn ... if you were one of the people who rode
there, you knew when that car ran.  And in Greensburg, the dispatcher would
have announced the departure.  Same with Connellsville.

After the 1939 abandonment of the service through New Stanton, Tarrs,
Younstown; WP ran hourly cars from Uniontown to Greensburg through Hecla
and in between those cars were hourly cars from Uniontown to Hecla, which
connected with the Latrobe cars going north.   That left hourly service
from Hecla to Greensburg for a year or two.  As a result of traffic
increases in World War II, half hourly service was resumed all the way from
Uniontown to Greensburg, and that remained until August 9, 1952 when the
route was replaced by buses.

I have no idea what sort of bus service Fayette Coach Company operated
other than the knowledge that it didn't last long.  West Penn went out of
the bus business on the south end in June 1953.  I saw Fayette cvoaches on
the north end as late as 1957 but I never really followed what they were
doing.   There was probably a "psychological" drop in business as soon as
the buses were put on.  Furthermore, West Penn had a chance of holding on
to their traffic when people had to wait in the woods for a car.  But when
Mrs. Kowalski was waiting for the bus on the edge of a public street,
friends might pick her up in their machine.  And of course there was a
continuing increase in auto usage that wiped out the Smiths and the
Martinos.  I think there might have been some service by school bus
operators on the south end into the 1980s.  I think (don't quote me damn
it), Westmoreland County Transit Authority runs the Lincoln Coach Lines and
Westmoreland Trailways service on the north end ... I've actually ween WCTA
bus stop signs along the route from Hecla to Latrobe.

"James B. Holland" wrote:

> Greetings!!
>
> Pg.09 of the PRMA WP book indicates that the  'Back'  Line had a white
> on blue destination sign.       Is this:::::::
>
> 1.>--    Greensburg to Uniontown through Hunker,
>              Leisenring, Phillips??.......
>
> 2.>--    or Greensburg to Uniontown through Hunker,
>             Dunbar??.......
>
> 3.>--    or Connellsville through Hunker to Greensburg?
>
> Pg.09 of Volkmer's Color book including WP shows what  *appears*  to be
> White on Green from Connellsville through Phillips to Uniontown.
>
> And I also saw a Red on White Latrobe, Youngstown Baggaley sign in the
> book as well, pgs.21 and 24.       PRMA book indicates that Latrobe is
> White on Green, but that may be Hecla to Latrobe shuttle.
>
> Jim__Holland