[PRCo] Re: Braking Systems

[John Swindler]

Jim/Fred:

It wasn't the operator that removed the necessary action derail switch.

As a colonel frequently told us:  "Sometimes we make poor decisions, but we 
don't want to do dumb things"

John



>From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Braking Systems
>Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:23:26 -0400
>
>You took that incorrectly Jim.   I didn't say the operator was
>wrong.   If anything I said PAT management was wrong, nay STUPID in
>all capital letters, for removing the derail which might just have
>protected the operator.   The word young may have bee incorrect.
>I'm also using the word might because it was a timed derail.
>
>I think that Derrrick's system strips colors, italics, bolding,
>etc.   If it didn't, I might go into your list and color those
>numbers that I think might be worth investingating.   Certainly,
>1600s in 1965 could be any fender bender .... you just don't waste
>money fixing them.   My eye fell on one war time accident in Forest
>Hills and that may be the reason for the spacing signals ... there
>was a bad one there in a fog.
>
>On Oct 19, 2005, at 4:46 PM, James B. Holland wrote:
>
> > Fred Schneider wrote:
> > .
> >
> >
> >> Yes. Broken motor lead so the dynamic brakes failed. Because they
> >> failed, all the motorman had was drum brakes. He was young,
> >> inadequately trained, and didn't understand why he was sliding
> >> through
> >> all the stops on the way in that morning. And the problem was
> >> compounded because PAT removed the timed derail at South Hills
> >> Junction .... had it been there, the car would probably have been on
> >> the ground at the top of the hill instead of slamming into the P&LE
> >> station. But if memories are short and we can't remember that we had
> >> two previous runaways in the tunnel, well, you get the picture.
> >>
> >> On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:37 PM, Boris Cefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Perhaps the most tragic story of a streetcar which lost its brakes
> >>> (well, in the PCC era) was an accident of 1727 at Station square on
> >>> 28th October 1987.
> >>> It was discussed on this list several years back, but others may add
> >>> some details again.
> >>>
> >>> Boris
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> > .
> > You are Leaving Out the Most Important Part of the Story.
> > .
> > The Operator was  -*Told-*  that he had new trucks on the car with
> > Newly
> > Machined Tires and that these Newly Machined Tires would have a Great
> > Propensity to Slip / Slide in Both Acceleration and Braking on wet
> > rails.       The Operator was a veteran of  ({[pat]})  but only had
> > 6-months experience on rails.       So when the car slipped and
> > slid as
> > predicted, What Would A Novice To Rails Think in this specific
> > situation?
> > .
> > Other ops here in SF were impressed that I caught on so fast to
> > sticking
> > drums  --  NEVER  experienced such anywhere but SF and in several
> > weeks
> > of training here that happened a Multitude of Times.
> > .
> > Very Easy to state that the  ({[pat]})  Op was negligent with Our
> > Hindsight but in Reality, Would I Personally have recognized the
> > difference between a slide from new wheels or lack of brakes
> > because of
> > a loss of dynamics and worn out drums As A New Railfan Operator under
> > these conditions??       I would like to say Yes but I Can  NOT  do so
> > with any authority nor guarantee!!!!!!!       I  AM  quite familiar
> > with
> > the hiss of sliding wheels, even on PRCo, so the lack of same in this
> > 1727 incident may have given me a clue.       Also, remember that
> > it was
> > Verboten to use sand unless dire emergency on the Interurban prw  --
> > wasn't this a Library Car?!       And with the lack of anything to hit
> > on prw, an emergency did not exist!       Using sand and then still
> > sliding would have been another clue that Something Else Was Amiss!!
> >       (Also, what many people Never Understand  --  necessary to have
> > sand  UNDER  ALL  WHEELS  before hitting brakes to prevent a slide  --
> > hitting sander and brakes At Same Time rarely does the job!!!!!!!)
> > .
> > The Operator in this case was listed as an Hero because, once he
> > realized the car was out of control in the tunnel, he had everyone
> > move
> > to the rear of the car and one woman who was frozen in fear in her
> > seat,
> > this woman He Picked Up And Carried To The Rear of the car.
> > Injuries  --  but everyone survived, yes?
> > .
> > What about the double-ender that ran away in the tunnel Christmas Eve
> > with packed Car  --  argument between op and motorman  --  trolley
> > pole
> > dewired and conductor couldn't get out to attend to same  --  op mad
> > that he had to do work of someone else  --  also inebriated  --  can't
> > find info on this one offhand  --  1917???????
> > .
> > .
> > Here is an edited listing of  some  scrappings due to accidents  --
> > 4300s Good(?) showing here:::::::
> >
> > 3702   1943.01.18   Collision and Fire Walthers Stop
> >
> > 3709   1943.01.18   Collision and Fire Walthers Stop
> >
> > 4210   1944.08.01   Collision, Castle Shannon
> >
> > 4318   1942.03.20   Fire on the road.
> >
> > 4328   1945.01.24   Damage by locomotive.
> >
> > 4346   1945.07.14   Fire on the road.
> >
> > 4355   1951.11.03   Collision at Washington.
> >
> > 4356   1951.12.29   Fire at Tylderdale.
> >
> > 4364   1944.08.15   Collision with 1410 Ardmore Blvd.
> >
> > 4365   1950.09.18   Collision
> >
> > 4368   1945.05.15   Collision Tunnel
> >
> > 4378   1951.09.14   Collision with truck
> >
> > 4381   1951.08.07?   Collision
> >
> > 4386   1951.08.07?   Collision
> >
> > 4390   1952.05.19   Collision on Charter
> >                                      apparently Not  PERC.
> >
> > 4708   1943.11.15   Collision Tunnel
> >
> > 4776   1928.12.06   Demolished in Collision
> >
> > 4800   1951.10.29   Collision
> >
> > 4801   1948.09.28   Collision with 5409
> >
> > 4887   1938.01.27   Collision E.Pgh.
> >
> > 5018   1944.11.14   Collision with 1226 Munhall loop
> >
> > 5077   1931.01.02   Run away on Liberty Ave. Hill, car demolished
> > (I......City Brewery)
> >
> > 5247   1948.03.12   Badly damaged in derailment.
> >
> > 5409   1948.09.28   Collision with 4801.
> >
> > 1038   1959.xx.xx   Collision with truck 28th Liberty
> >                          Thought it was Penn - may have snoozepaper
> >                          article.
> >
> > 1213   1961.xx.xx   Collision SHJ
> >
> > 1242   1960.xx.xx   Collision with M0283, Dawn Jct.
> >
> > 1261   1963.07.08   Collision with 1645 38A.
> >
> > 1267   1962.11.26   Collision with 140-0 Smithfield Bridge
> >
> > 1297   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with truck Ohio Federal
> >
> > 1299   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with truck Ohio Brighton
> >
> > 1437   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision
> >
> > 1454   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision
> >
> > 1529   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with truck lower Forbes
> >
> > 1608   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with auto Wilkinsburg
> >
> > 1629   1958.04.23   Collision with 1296 Sandusky Gen Robinson
> >
> > 1645   1963.07.08   Collision with 1261 38A - Knew this Operator.
> >
> > 1668   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision inside Tunnel
> >
> >
> > The following equipment was scrapped because of Homewood Fire::
> >
> > 4131
> > 4826
> > 4851
> > 1026
> > 1051
> > 1155
> > 1220
> > 1281
> > 1294
> > 1600
> > 1648
> > 1682
> > 1701
> > 1725
> > M0197
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim__Holland
> >
> >
> > I__Like__Ike.......And__PCCs!!
> >
> > down with pantographs ---- UP___WITH___TROLLEYPOLES!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> >
>
>