[PRCo] Re: Braking Systems

James B. Holland PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com
Thu Oct 20 16:35:18 EDT 2005


Fred Schneider wrote:
.

> And in many cases operators are wrong ... most instances of aviation 
> accidents involve not equipment failure but human failure.


Unfortunate Fact Of Life.       Where there are humans there are mistakes.

Yes. operators // drivers are wrong but that is changing the subject  
--  IN  This  Particular  Case he Was Not!       And past discussions on 
this list maligned the operator.       Equipment failure on 1727 which I 
would term an Honest Mistake  --  one time incident, no such history, 
things like this happen.        I am not a fan of  ({[pat]})  but I 
don't blame  ({[pat]}) in this particular case  --  the motor lead May 
have been tied properly  --  the tie itself may have failed and the tie 
may have been faulty  --  too many unknowns.


Equipment failure in airlines as well as transit.       Remember the 
Alaska Air jet enroute from Mexico to San Francisco that ditched itself 
in the Pacific off Los Angeles  --  rudder problem  --  KNOWN  rudder 
problem that was covered up by High Management.       Many Other 
examples as well.       Put yourself in the seat on that plane and even 
Try to Imagine the Fear And Pain they must have experienced  KNOWING  
that they would die shortly.       Unimaginable!

Agree about human failure in airlines  --  that's why I said I would 
only fly in emergencies.       Distinctly remember a jet leaving Detroit 
that forgot to drop the flaps thus no lift and it crashed  --  One 
survivor  --  child held in her mother's arms.       Not A Few similar 
mistakes at the time.       Other pilots who saw the plane insisted that 
the flaps were down but all evidence from the plane said no.       
Movies show crew going through checklist  --  after doing that for 
multiple flights it becomes so routine to say  CHECK  in response to a 
query  --  ALL  humans guilty of same.       Just like trying to find a 
math mistake  --  we program ourselves and everything gets to be 
standard routine that we don't see problem areas!

After 9.11 I said there ain't no such thing as an emergency  --  DO  
NOT  fly.       Don't belittle  MY  Choice  --  I am American where 
Freedom to Choose is held dear.        I have flown and in some severe 
weather conditions  --  ain't got NO  (tremendous Ingrish, Yes?!)  fear 
of flying  --  just fear of crashing!


Same at SF Muni  --  same everywhere.       Had  TOO  Many  Total  Brake 
failures on PCCs and lrvs here in SF  --  WAY  too  many.       Try to 
prove your case if you have an accident  --  management  NEVER  believes 
that equipment can be faulty  --  N--E--V--E--R!       Had many rail 
cars where brakes would work one minute but not the next  --  management 
doesn't believe that, either!       Each general I think about going 
over to rails again  --  would like to end career on rails but do  NOT  
want rails to end my career Prematurely.

Have said it before and shall say it again  --  SF-Muni PCC equipment 
maintenance in the latter 1970s into the 1980s could be  BEST  described 
as Criminal Neglect.

Yuppppppppppp  --  where there are pimples there are mistakes  --  EVEN  
intentional mistakes.       Rank doesn't matter  --  highest to lowest  
--  ALL  here are guilty of same  --  ALL  everywhere!!!!!!!       Fact  
Of  Life  ({[those udder  Facts  Of  Life  are misnomers!!!]})


> Why so many 1200s involved in accidents Jim? The brake system?


List is probably not exhaustive  --  probably selective.       Difficult 
to read as well.       These two interest me::

5077 1931.01.02 Run away on Liberty Ave. Hill, car demolished 
(I......City Brewery)

5247 1948.03.12 Badly damaged in derailment.

Did 5077 hit a beer truck?       Seems that way

> The fire at Tylerdale was probably something the company was happy to 
> have ... an insurance payment for a 4300 in 1951 when they might have 
> otherwise just scrapped it.
>
> Each one of these deserves more thorough research ... some are 
> significant and some are insignificant rear enders that probably 
> resulted in wiping out a car simply because you don't waste money 
> fixing 1200s in 1962 or 1963. Those may have been cars that would not 
> have had money spent on them just to do the next major inspection.
>
>
>
>> Fred Schneider wrote:
>> .
>>
>>> You took that incorrectly Jim. I didn't say the operator was wrong.
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2005, at 5:39 AM, James B. Holland wrote:
>

>> True -- you didn't in this writing -- didn't take your writing 
>> incorrectly. I am thinking of discussions in the past here on this 
>> list the where operator was rudely criticized by some.
>>
>>
>>> I think that Derrick's system strips colors, italics, bolding,
>>
>>
>> Purely Text Messaging -- Not HTML.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2005, at 4:46 PM, James B. Holland wrote:
>>>> .
>>>> Here is an edited listing of some scrappings due to accidents --
>>>> 4300s Good(?) showing here:::::::
>>>>
>>>> 3702 1943.01.18 Collision and Fire Walthers Stop
>>>>
>>>> 3709 1943.01.18 Collision and Fire Walthers Stop
>>>>
>>>> 4210 1944.08.01 Collision, Castle Shannon
>>>>
>>>> 4318 1942.03.20 Fire on the road.
>>>>
>>>> 4328 1945.01.24 Damage by locomotive.
>>>>
>>>> 4346 1945.07.14 Fire on the road.
>>>>
>>>> 4355 1951.11.03 Collision at Washington.
>>>>
>>>> 4356 1951.12.29 Fire at Tylderdale.
>>>>
>>>> 4364 1944.08.15 Collision with 1410 Ardmore Blvd.
>>>>
>>>> 4365 1950.09.18 Collision
>>>>
>>>> 4368 1945.05.15 Collision Tunnel
>>>>
>>>> 4378 1951.09.14 Collision with truck
>>>>
>>>> 4381 1951.08.07? Collision
>>>>
>>>> 4386 1951.08.07? Collision
>>>>
>>>> 4390 1952.05.19 Collision on Charter
>>>> apparently Not PERC.
>>>>
>>>> 4708 1943.11.15 Collision Tunnel
>>>>
>>>> 4776 1928.12.06 Demolished in Collision
>>>>
>>>> 4800 1951.10.29 Collision
>>>>
>>>> 4801 1948.09.28 Collision with 5409
>>>>
>>>> 4887 1938.01.27 Collision E.Pgh.
>>>>
>>>> 5018 1944.11.14 Collision with 1226 Munhall loop
>>>>
>>>> 5077 1931.01.02 Run away on Liberty Ave. Hill, car demolished
>>>> (I......City Brewery)
>>>>
>>>> 5247 1948.03.12 Badly damaged in derailment.
>>>>
>>>> 5409 1948.09.28 Collision with 4801.
>>>>
>>>> 1038 1959.xx.xx Collision with truck 28th Liberty
>>>> Thought it was Penn - may have snoozepaper
>>>> article.
>>>>
>>>> 1213 1961.xx.xx Collision SHJ
>>>>
>>>> 1242 1960.xx.xx Collision with M0283, Dawn Jct.
>>>>
>>>> 1261 1963.07.08 Collision with 1645 38A.
>>>>
>>>> 1267 1962.11.26 Collision with 140-0 Smithfield Bridge
>>>>
>>>> 1297 xxxx.xx.xx Collision with truck Ohio Federal
>>>>
>>>> 1299 xxxx.xx.xx Collision with truck Ohio Brighton
>>>>
>>>> 1437 xxxx.xx.xx Collision
>>>>
>>>> 1454 xxxx.xx.xx Collision
>>>>
>>>> 1529 xxxx.xx.xx Collision with truck lower Forbes
>>>>
>>>> 1608 xxxx.xx.xx Collision with auto Wilkinsburg
>>>>
>>>> 1629 1958.04.23 Collision with 1296 Sandusky Gen Robinson
>>>>
>>>> 1645 1963.07.08 Collision with 1261 38A - Knew this Operator.
>>>>
>>>> 1668 xxxx.xx.xx Collision inside Tunnel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The following equipment was scrapped because of Homewood Fire::
>>>>
>>>> 4131
>>>> 4826
>>>> 4851
>>>> 1026
>>>> 1051
>>>> 1155
>>>> 1220
>>>> 1281
>>>> 1294
>>>> 1600
>>>> 1648
>>>> 1682
>>>> 1701
>>>> 1725
>>>> M0197
>>>




Jim__Holland


I__Like__Ike.......And__PCCs!!

down with pantographs ---- UP___WITH___TROLLEYPOLES!!!!!!!




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