[PRCo] TrolleyCar___Speed
Holland Electric Rwy. Op. H.E.R.O. -- Import SPTC 1.48 Models // James B. Holland
PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com
Sun Apr 2 00:05:06 EST 2006
Included are a number of emails from another list dealing with
TrolleyCar // StreetCar speed. The discussion started with an
observation that the current StreetCars in Portland, OR -- as
opposed to the lrvs -- were limited to 30-mph Top Speed. It was
later learned that this is a governed limit as the Portland
StreetCars are designed and built for about the same balancing speed of
a PCC, near 40-mph.
.
Some of the comments are from People Within The Transit Profession, but
even then these people suffer from the same that the rest of us suffer
-- humanity and the tendency to remember conditions the way we want to
remember them!! Some comments need to be taken with a grain of
salt and compared to facts // statistics elsewhere for validation!!!
.
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> From: "geoghb at xyz.abc
> Subject: RE: Re: 30 mph Streetcars
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> It seems to me the safest of all operations within streets are
those commensurate with other vehicular traffic. Given a 35mph
street - the real auto speeds will be closer to 45 mph, the rail line
should not get in the way of natural (posted limits are generally
unnaturally low) speed and cause frustration, road rage and anger
to motorists. Thus, the rail vehicles should be driven by the
[well trained] operators to keep up with other traffic flows and not
create more congestion. Eliminate the governors, both on rail cars
and state houses.
.
> Posted speed limits, the legal limit, are often contrary to each
other and natural traffic flow. Road warrior traffic engineers are
often at fault for creating dangerous situations with poorly regulated
speed limits and 'camping out' traffic signals and poorly designed
roads, ramps, and intersections. Unfortunately, just about anyone
attempting to drive the legal limit will be creating more hazzard than
going with the flow - sort of like trying to prevent water to seek its
own level.
.
> In my own neighborhood there are two streets, both with center
islands and two lanes in each direction. The shorter one with
cross streets on both sides entering into heavily used shopping centers
has a 40 mph speed limit. The other, with 2 traffic signaled
intersections several blocks apart without any driveways or commercial
entrances and clear view is rated at 30 mph. The second one, of
course, is radar trap alley.
.
> Thus, what is legally posted is indeed 'lawful' but doesn't make it
good, better, correct, or safer. Basically, a money making
proposition more than anything else.
.
> Anyone on this list who has never violated a traffic ordinance is
privileged to reply.
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> George
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From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
Subject: Re: 30 mph Streetcars
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Sorry, but this is Dead Wrong! Professional Drivers would Not
exceed the speed limit 'To Keep Up With The Jones / Smiths / etc.'
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Two Wrongs Do Not Make A ______________.
.
Agree with your observations, George -- speed limits exceeded
everywhere on a regular basis -- but this should Never be a reason
to justify so doing by Anyone. PROFESSIONALs Never advocate that
public transit travel faster than the posted speed limit. In
Fact, here in SF, the Muni requires that ALL transit vehicles slow to
15-mph in Intersections regardless of other posted speed limits --
Unless the posted speed limits are lower -- and to Never travel more
than 25-mph at other times! Professional Drivers -- Rail
Transit, lrvs, cable cars, buses, trucks, etc. -- Are Held To A Higher
Standard than other vehicle drivers on the road.
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From pg.305 The__Time__of__the__Trolley (Wm. D. Middleton) bottom
picture caption: """...When BCE put its first PCC in service in
1938, the operator was promptly arrested for speeding."""
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>From pg.251 PCC__Coast__to__Coast: """In January 1938 BCER
became the first Canadian property to purchase a PCC car... car 400
arrived in Vancouver during December 1938. Shortly thereafter, one
of its motormen received a speeding ticket from the Vancouver Police
Department."""
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If ANY driver is observing the speed limit it is Not The Fault
of That Driver when someone else goes into road rage and violates the
speed limit -- it Is the fault of the Road Rage Driver.
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Professional Drivers are trained to Avoid Accidents and Are Often
Charged with accidents, Not because they collided with other
vehicles, but because conditions allowed other vehicles to collide with
the vehicle driven by a Professional. If a Professional Driver
is changing lanes At An Angle and is hit by another vehicle, the
other driver may bear some responsibility but the Pro Driver WILL be
charged with an Avoidable Accident by his company. Same for a
bus stopped at a bus stop at an angle instead of parallel and within a
foot of the curb -- bus driver STOPPED at a Bus Stop At An
Angle, flashers flashing, WILL be charged with an Avoidable
Accident by his company when another vehicle hits that bus.
.
Your last comment, George, is beneath you and I shall forget it was ever
written -- intimidation to make a point is unnecessary.
.
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> From: stennyson at xyz.abc
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> George... is correct. Safety requires all vehicles proceed at
the same speed in the same lane. If police do not enforce the law,
that is another problem but professional drivers do not want to be
charges with accidents, They will try to be safe.
.
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From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
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AGREED on observations of What Actually Happens! As already
mentioned, however, Pros Never Advocate violation of the law. In
fact, rules for Professional Drivers <Often Require> Pro Drivers
to drive at speeds Lower Than Those Posted -- Avoidance of
Accidents is the Policy, Not who is at fault after the fact.
Again, it is NEVER the fault of the driver who observes the speed
limit when someone else loses patience with the same driver and violates
the limit and thus causes an accident.
.
In reality, the observations made here on human activity paint a Bad
Picture of Society As A Whole -- We are not as pretty as we like
to paint ourselves.
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> From: stennyson at xyz.abc
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> In Pittsburgh in 1938, Pittsburgh introduced PCC cars with six of
them replacing seven same size old cars. Faster operation made
that possible although older cars were speeded up to stay out of the
way. In 1939, the Safety Committee came to Trustee and General
Manager Tom Fitzgerald petitioning him to slow the PCC cars down,.
Too many accidents
> Fitzgerald thought about it and determined that he could not afford
to pay for the PCC cars if he slowed them down. They attracted 12
percent more riders (revenue) with speed and more comfort. They
saved 14 percent on costs by eliminating every seventh car and its
motorman. In 1938 it was awful tough to meet payroll.
> He ruled :full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes. People will
have learn to stay out of the way and respect street cars
Automobiles have far more accidents than street cars and they do not
slow down..
> I arrived in Pittsburgh in 1940 and soon learned that college kids
did learn to respect the street cars. They quit trying to beat
them (most of the time) By 1948 when I was in the Research
Department of P.Ry.Co I got to work safety statistics when the regular
man was off. Pittsburgh had a very good safety record, but Toronto
with more PCC cars was even better. The best in North America PCC
cars had electric magnetic track brakes to help stop in an
emergency. They were not used normally as too fast a stop threw
people down in the aisle or bruised them on stanchions or seat frames.
.
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From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
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Strange -- Schneider and Carlson on pg.161 of PCC__Coast__To__Coast
indicate that the Speeded Up Old Cars in Pittsburgh had <Lower>
accident rates::: """By 1931 there were 129 high-speed [old,
pre-PCC] cars, and eventually the number reached 424. But, despite
their increased speed and lower accident rates compared to the low-speed
versions.,...""" The speeded-up cars had far more responsive and
positive acceleration and braking.
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I have an 30-page report issued by the PCC committee on 1938.10.18
indicating that accident rates for PCC cars were greatly reduced
compared to older cars. Here is a quote from the Brooklyn section
of the report [Brooklyn Known for High Density Traffic!!,] not unusual
in this report for other properties as well:::
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"""Accidents... for fiscal years ending June 30, 1937 and 1938,... on
the Smith-Coney Island line, indicated a decrease of approximately 8% in
the number of accidents with an increase of 33% in the number of
passengers carried."""
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"""Results of operation to the present, comparing the two fiscal years
mentioned above, on a mileage basis, the accidents have decreased 24%
and 16% respectively on the Smith-Coney Island and the
McDonald-Vanderbilt lines. On the basis of passengers carried, the
reduction is 28.3% and 27.6% respectively."""
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Accident___Reduction___For___PITTSBURGH::
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"""As shown by the table [Not Herein Included], the accidents per
10,000 car miles were reduced on every Fifth Avenue route in the period
after the installation of PCC cars; and for the group as a whole, the
accidents per 10,000 car miles decreased from 3.40 to 2.86 -- a
reduction of 15.9%. The urban system accidents decreased from 3.10
per 10,000 car miles to 2.65 -- a decrease of 14.5%. The urban
systems operations include, of course, considerable PCC car mileage
during the 12 month period ending July 31, 1938."""
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"""The accident and mileage figures for the Fifth Avenue routes cover
the entire operations of the lines. However, the PCC cars operate
only about 74% of this mileage, because peak service is filled in with
speeded up, old standard cars."""
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> From: stennyson at xyz.abc
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> Modern Light Rail cars of all types average 0.9 casulaties per
million passenger-miles but buses suffer twice as many with 1.8.
Why are buses not limited to 30 miles per hour ?
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> E d T e n n y s o n
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From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
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Buses In The City Are limited to 25-mph Top Speed in San Francisco --
15-mph through intersections. So Are <lrvs > on surface streets
-- ALL this regardless of How High the posted speed limit.
Motor coaches on freeways are exempt from the 25-mph limit.
.
Modern Light Rail is <Mostly> Private Right Of Way (prw) By
Definition whereas PCCs and TrolleyCars of yore were primarily
Street Vehicles, as are motor coaches. This is comparing apples
and oranges.
.
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> From: Frank S. Miklos
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> Someone I know from Pittburgh clocked a PCC car on Second Avenue
reaching a speed of 55 mph. This was on the long stretch of street
running paralleling the Monongahela River and the B & O Railroad where
there were no intersecting streets and no consequently no traffic
lights. He also clocked a PCC car on Forbes Avenue through
Schenley Park at over 45 mph.
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> Frank
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> From: "R. J. Halperin"
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> Based on information I gleaned from the engineers at GE, I would
suspect that something was wrong with that guy's speedometer.
While the balancing speed of those cars was 42-45 mph, there was a
strong likelihood that the bands on the motor would fail at a speed of
55mph, depending upon how long that speed was maintained. I've
heard people in Detroit say their PCCs went 80 mph!
.
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From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
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This is borne out by other engineers as well. Believe it or not,
there is an individual who claimed he clocked one Pittsburgh 87-Ardmore
PCC Inbound on Ardmore Blvd. (center of the highway prw -- Inbound is
Mostly UpHill, by the way) at 90-mph!!!!!!! This was about 1960
-- only thing I can see is that he got caught at a red light and
personally did 90-mph to catch the trolley after that but I personally
doubt the PCC even got near 40-mph UpHill let alone 90!!!
.
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From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
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I have to question that speed on Second Avenue -- this was down by the
steel mills and a narrow street with dog-leg gentle curves but curves
through which I would Fear traveling 55-mph. And after the rebuild
in the 1950s to accommodate the Parkway East, there is absolutely NO
way one would negotiate the realigned curves at more than 15 to 20
mph. Forbes into Schenley or Frick Park, yes -- 45-mph very
possible -- modestly downhill OB near Frick Park.
.
The PRCo 1601 series Air-Electric PCCs did have governor control which
cut power to the motors at a pre determined speed (about the 42-mph
balancing speed) -- it was necessary to release the power pedal, allow
the car to slow, and reapply power to regain power. On the
1700-series All-Electric PCCs, the governor did the same but one could
keep the power pedal engaged and power would return when the car
slowed. Have experienced this on 17s outbound on Library
Interurban, outbound of Hillcrest. Have experienced same on the
1601s but can't remember location offhand -- will probably remember
after I send the email.
.
ETI-Skoda TrolleyCoaches here in SF work similarly to PRCo 1700s --
power cuts at 41-mph and returns at about 38-mph.
.
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> From: stennyson at xyz.abc
Subject: Re: Re: Portland streetcars - max speed only 30 mph??
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PCC cars were designed and geared for 42 miles per hour with 50 top
speed as downhill, or tailwind, That was the specification. They
were designed to resist going faster,
.
However in 1949, Pittsburgh equipped about 30 PCC cars with B-3 trucks
and shock absorbers for interurban service. They could make the
same schedule as faster old interurban cars because they could
accelerate and brake faster, I often rode them and they could exceed 60
miles per hour down hill, True, I have no speedometer but I did
pace one once in my car down in Meadowlands on the Washington PA
line. There were carhouse rumors that some motormen could exceed
50 with city cars if they pumped the accelerator in a certain way.
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E d T e n n y s o n
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> From: stennyson at xyz.abc
Subject: Re: Re: 30 mph Streetcars
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Pittsburgh Railways never used GE cars on Second Avenue or on the
interurban, GE and Westinghouse cars have subtle differences, I am sure
none ever made 90 mph but folk lore rumors from motorists mentioned 70.
I strongly doubt that also
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E d T e n n y s o n
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Jim__Holland
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I__Like__Ike.......And__PCCs!!
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down with pantographs ---- UP___WITH___TROLLEYPOLES!!!!!!!
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