[PRCo] Re: Standards?!?!?!?!-__-Double__Points

[Fred Schneider]

In general the wheels in Europe have smaller treads than in the U.  
S.    We have huge wheels to compensate for bad track.   They  
don't.    That has been one of the problems at the National Capital  
trolley museum where they are mixing U. S. and European equipment ...  
those German and Austrian cars don't track well on private right-of- 
way track maintained to U. S. standards.

I wouldn't worry about high speed operation in the Hague and in other  
European cities Jim.   You are trying to compare it to the way we do  
things here.   When the track is as smooth as glass, you can run much  
faster without knocking people down in the cars.   He build new light  
rail lines to similar standards but 20 years later we really haven't  
done anything to maintain the track.   Over there the track is still  
the same 5 years later, 10 years later, 50 years later.   The  
exceptions were in much of eastern Europe before the fall of  
communism.   Throughout much of East Germany (the DDR) the track was  
atrocious.

On Dec 15, 2006, at 6:07 AM, Jim Holland wrote:

> Fred Schneider wrote:
> .
>
>> .......I've also spent about three and a half years of my life  
>> looking
>> at how the Europeans do it.       Hey guys, there is a
>> difference.       I've seen the Swiss in Zurich tear up the same
>> special work in an intersection within five years because the rail  
>> had
>> worn beyond their standards ... it was no longer good enough to go
>> thrashing through switches at 40 km/h!
>
> .
> I know other people who have studied the European system(s) as well  
> and
> they say that a High Percentage of their approach  is  *_Make__Work_*.
> .
> I-F  the rail had worn beyond their standards in just 5-years, then  
> they
> had defective rail, bad maintenance on the equipment, Other?
> Something was seriously lacking somewhere that wear exceeded the set
> limits.       Tremendous waste of materials, labor, etc.
> .
> .
> America is a  *_Maintenance__Free_*  even Throw--Away society    ----
> Europe is  Maintenance__Intensive    ----    these are  Strictly
> Observations,  Not  Criticisms.       These are simply two different
> approaches among many to the same situations.       As mentioned  
> above,
> some have called this maintenance approach in Europe a Make-Work  
> situation.
> .
> .
>
>> .......And some of you guys also need to go to the Hague and find out
>> what it's like to sit in the last seat of a PCC articulated car as it
>> comes out of a curve in an intersection ... you would think you are
>> cracking the whip in Kennywood Park.
>
> .
> Sounds like a great way to Cause a Fall On Board  --  FOB  --  did you
> report that Operator for reckless operations?
> .
> .
> American TrolleyCars    ----    PCCs and antecedents    ----    had
> TrolleyCar profile wheels and flanges  --  they pick very nicely at
> double point RR style turnouts.       On Overbrook, PRCo bolted a  
> plate
> on the  *_Inside_*  of the running rail where the RR point meets the
> rail to push the flange away from the point to prevent  
> picking.       I
> have related this story before right here on the list    ----    I was
> onboard 1723 Drake outbound 2.14-PM, Mother's Day in early 1960s,  Bon
> Air siding when the car suddenly made weird noises and stopped on a  
> dime
> throwing all out of their seats.       Front truck made it through the
> turnout into the siding but rear truck went on the ground and back  
> axle
> mounted the track brake which caused the instantaneous stop.        
> Seems
> the RR point had expanded well over the bump plate making the Point  
> Ripe
> For Picking.
> .
> Donut know what kind of wheel and flange profile Europe uses but would
> suspect that the dimensions are larger than American which allows them
> to negotiate RR style points more easily    ----    North American lrv
> systems built from scratch use RR profile wheels but those like SF  
> which
> were built on top of a TrolleyCar system that needed to keep the
> TrolleyCars in operation keep the rail and wheel profile the same  
> as the
> TrolleyCars.       Those slim European RR points aren't much to begin
> with and will wear much faster and need replacement more often.
> SF-Muni tried some of the European double Point RR switches on the  
> Judah
> line  --  ALL  have been replaced with standard point and mate  --
> European double points lasted only about a decade  --  if that.
> .
> Kummler & Matter  (K&M)  --  Swiss  --  makes Very Innovative Floating
> Suspension Overhead which San Francisco used on its 1-California  
> trolley
> coach line when it was rerouted over the former diseaseal 55- 
> Sacramento,
> so only a part of the line was K&M.        Ultra Serious Horrendous
> Problems with the K&M here  --  reportedly works well in Europe.
> Difference is approach to maintenance, not the system.       K&M is  
> Not
> Bad Overhead, but it is bad where maintenance is low.        
> Standard OB
> *_Here_*  works Much Much Better and needs Much Much less  
> attention  --
> same schedule speeds with either.
> .
> .
> .
> Jim___Holland
>
>
>