[PRCo] Re: Standards?!?!?!?!--DoublePoints

Fri Dec 15 12:18:11 EST 2006

But the speed doesn't matter if you don't receive the post!  And that's
where there seems to be a problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org]On Behalf Of Fred
Schneider
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 12:00 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Standards?!?!?!?!-__-Double__Points

Here is an example Jim.   11:58:26 and I already notice this was back
on comcast.net from dementia.org.  That was less than 3 minutes.

On Dec 15, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Fred Schneider wrote:

> In general the wheels in Europe have smaller treads than in the U.
> S.    We have huge wheels to compensate for bad track.   They
> don't.    That has been one of the problems at the National Capital
> trolley museum where they are mixing U. S. and European equipment ...
> those German and Austrian cars don't track well on private right-of-
> way track maintained to U. S. standards.
>
> I wouldn't worry about high speed operation in the Hague and in other
> European cities Jim.   You are trying to compare it to the way we do
> things here.   When the track is as smooth as glass, you can run much
> faster without knocking people down in the cars.   He build new light
> rail lines to similar standards but 20 years later we really haven't
> done anything to maintain the track.   Over there the track is still
> the same 5 years later, 10 years later, 50 years later.   The
> exceptions were in much of eastern Europe before the fall of
> communism.   Throughout much of East Germany (the DDR) the track was
> atrocious.
>
> On Dec 15, 2006, at 6:07 AM, Jim Holland wrote:
>
>> Fred Schneider wrote:
>> .
>>
>>> .......I've also spent about three and a half years of my life
>>> looking
>>> at how the Europeans do it.       Hey guys, there is a
>>> difference.       I've seen the Swiss in Zurich tear up the same
>>> special work in an intersection within five years because the rail
>>> had
>>> worn beyond their standards ... it was no longer good enough to go
>>> thrashing through switches at 40 km/h!
>>
>> .
>> I know other people who have studied the European system(s) as well
>> and
>> they say that a High Percentage of their approach  is
>> *_Make__Work_*.
>> .
>> I-F  the rail had worn beyond their standards in just 5-years, then
>> they
>> had defective rail, bad maintenance on the equipment, Other?
>> Something was seriously lacking somewhere that wear exceeded the set
>> limits.       Tremendous waste of materials, labor, etc.
>> .
>> .
>> America is a  *_Maintenance__Free_*  even Throw--Away society    ----
>> Europe is  Maintenance__Intensive    ----    these are  Strictly
>> Observations,  Not  Criticisms.       These are simply two different
>> approaches among many to the same situations.       As mentioned
>> above,
>> some have called this maintenance approach in Europe a Make-Work
>> situation.
>> .
>> .
>>
>>> .......And some of you guys also need to go to the Hague and find
>>> out
>>> what it's like to sit in the last seat of a PCC articulated car
>>> as it
>>> comes out of a curve in an intersection ... you would think you are
>>> cracking the whip in Kennywood Park.
>>
>> .
>> Sounds like a great way to Cause a Fall On Board  --  FOB  --  did
>> you
>> report that Operator for reckless operations?
>> .
>> .
>> American TrolleyCars    ----    PCCs and antecedents    ----    had
>> TrolleyCar profile wheels and flanges  --  they pick very nicely at
>> double point RR style turnouts.       On Overbrook, PRCo bolted a
>> plate
>> on the  *_Inside_*  of the running rail where the RR point meets the
>> rail to push the flange away from the point to prevent
>> picking.       I
>> have related this story before right here on the list    ----    I
>> was
>> onboard 1723 Drake outbound 2.14-PM, Mother's Day in early 1960s,
>> Bon
>> Air siding when the car suddenly made weird noises and stopped on a
>> dime
>> throwing all out of their seats.       Front truck made it through
>> the
>> turnout into the siding but rear truck went on the ground and back
>> axle
>> mounted the track brake which caused the instantaneous stop.
>> Seems
>> the RR point had expanded well over the bump plate making the Point
>> Ripe
>> For Picking.
>> .
>> Donut know what kind of wheel and flange profile Europe uses but
>> would
>> suspect that the dimensions are larger than American which allows
>> them
>> to negotiate RR style points more easily    ----    North American
>> lrv
>> systems built from scratch use RR profile wheels but those like SF
>> which
>> were built on top of a TrolleyCar system that needed to keep the
>> TrolleyCars in operation keep the rail and wheel profile the same
>> as the
>> TrolleyCars.       Those slim European RR points aren't much to begin
>> with and will wear much faster and need replacement more often.
>> SF-Muni tried some of the European double Point RR switches on the
>> Judah
>> line  --  ALL  have been replaced with standard point and mate  --
>> European double points lasted only about a decade  --  if that.
>> .
>> Kummler & Matter  (K&M)  --  Swiss  --  makes Very Innovative
>> Floating
>> Suspension Overhead which San Francisco used on its 1-California
>> trolley
>> coach line when it was rerouted over the former diseaseal 55-
>> Sacramento,
>> so only a part of the line was K&M.        Ultra Serious Horrendous
>> Problems with the K&M here  --  reportedly works well in Europe.
>> Difference is approach to maintenance, not the system.       K&M is
>> Not
>> Bad Overhead, but it is bad where maintenance is low.
>> Standard OB
>> *_Here_*  works Much Much Better and needs Much Much less
>> attention  --
>> same schedule speeds with either.
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> Jim___Holland
>>
>>
>>
>
>