[PRCo] Re: quick reply...Proof of Payment in Germany

[robert simpson]

This is probably way off-topic but is directly related to inter-urban and intra-urban transit systems.
   
  When I lived in Frankfurt-Mein, Germany in the early 1980's, I remember the transit fare checkers boarding the trains.  They were not in uniform and wore ordinary business attire.  They would board the cars from all entrances/exits and, once the train was underway, they would proceed down the aisles and show a wallet with a badge on one side and an ID card on the other side to the riders.  The badge looked similar to a policeman's shield.  They would politely ask to see the ticket and it wasn't done in an intimidating manner.  As I recall, most of them were multi-lingual and usually spoke English very well.  I saw a few people given citations and were usually given the opportunity to pay the fine immediately or to have a citation sent by mail.  I never observed any disorderly conduct or attempt made to flee the train.  Very difficult to flee when the train is traveling at high speed.   The fare inspectors usually departed the train at the next station and, I assume,
 boarded the next train traveling the other way.  There were only a very few who did not have tickets.  I seem to remember that they did not necessarily go to every passenger but usually inquired of most of the riders.  They only had a short time from one station to the next to perform this duty and these inspections were usually done on the longer runs.  They would accompany those who did not have a ticket or pass off the train at the next station and would be seen writing a citation.  I never witnessed an actual physical arrest being made.  The actual ticket was printed on rather ordinary looking paper and showed where purchased, time and date, and the line for which the ticket was intended.  It has a printed background with their logo.  There were always discard bins at the end of the runs to prevent litter.
   
  Frankfurt, like most Eurpoean cities, also had a monthly "Pass" system for which you went to one of the central stations in the downtown area and went to the service counter.   It wasn't very expensive - I seem to recall about DM50 per month but this number might be in error because of the passage of years.  The Pass gave you unlimited access to their transit system - but some of the longer routes (e.g. to the airport, soccer stadium, etc.) required purchasing additional fare from the fare machines.  If you had a monthly pass, the fare inspectors would glance at the pass, look for the code marking for the current month, say "thank you" (they were always polite) and proceed to the next person.  On exta-fare runs, they would look at both your pass and the extra fare ticket.
   
  The trains were always on-time (to the second) and extremely clean inside and out.  It was one of the best ways available to travel around Frankfurt.  The longest interval between trains was twelve minutes - and that was at night after 9 P.M.  Most, but not all,   the trains stopped operating at around 1 A.M.  Most riders picked-up a copy of the schedule either at the fare machine or on the train itself.  By planning ahead, travelers would arrive at the station/stop practically when the train was pulling into the station or stop and board immediately.
   
  Each station and stop had fare machines and would accept coins only.  Interestingly, in the event the fare machine "broke down", the riders would queue-up and patiently wait for a repair person to perform the maintenance.  The thought of boarding the train without a ticket was foreign to them.
   
  Stops and stations were announced by a voice annunciator prior to arrival and was usually in German only.  Exceptions were on the long lines from the Airport where the announcements were also in English and French.  Announcements were also made advising that the train was being taken out of service and that a transfer to a different train had to be made.  My knowledge of German was very poor but I learned to listen for a key word which sounded like "Ummsteigen" (I think it means something like "detour") which meant that something serious was going to happen and to follow the other riders.
   
  The trains had a pantograph-like device to draw the electricity from the overhead wires.  I was told that their system used Alternating Current and used silicon rectifiers (SCR's) to control the speed.  Someone mentioned to me that the voltage was 660 volts.  I would have guessed it was higher since the houses have 220 volts.  The operator was in a separate compartment and was isolated from the passengers.  I don't know if the door was locked or not.  
   
  I use the word "train" rather indiscriminately because most Eurpoean cities join together several cars and the length varies depending upon anticipated passenger traffic.   A "train" might be only one car in length during non-peak periods or several cars long during peak periods.  The length of the train was limited to the length of the shortest platform on the route.
   
  There were two main classifications of transit lines - the S-Bahn (Strassenbahn) and the U-Bahn (Undterstrassenbahn).  The S-Bahn could be associated with streetcars and the U-Bahn as being underground (subways).  The cars themselves appeared identical in appearance.  The S-Bahns often didn't run directly on the street but were on their own right-of-way immediately beside the street.
   
  In Frankfurt, and most of Europe, the train is the way to go!  Taxi fare from the airport to downtown Frankfurt was close to 40DM depending on how long the trip took (they use taxi meters the same as they do here) and took almost one hour, but the transit fare was only 4DM - and took less than 15 minutes.  Remember, these were the prices back in the early 1980's!
   
  Oops, sorry!  I hadn't planned to ramble on so long.  Those who know me are aware of this "problem" I have.
   
  Bob 
  from California
Herb Brannon <hrbran at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
  
Fred Schneider wrote: Herb:

Almost all of the new light-rail systems in the U. S. use the 
European proof of payment system. These systems were installed when 
the lines were opened to the public. Exceptions are usually 
existing lines such as Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. You would have 
to go on line to their web sites and see who uses proof of payment 
systems ... off hand I can think of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Jose, 
Sacramento, Portland, Denver, Houston, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Buffalo.

HrB: So you say there are more than five systems. I will have to check this out. Hard to believe, that in the U.S. that many systems want to loose money.

It works as well as it's enforced. There was a rather large brew-ha 
in Los Angeles last year or this year when SCRTD suggested 
installing turnstiles because the fare evasion rate was too high. 
Of course the do gooders felt that this was criminal on the part of 
the transit authority ... we should not be forcing our riders to pay 
fares ... we should allow them to pay if the choose to.

HrB: Not too many 'do gooders' here. For instance, when a Cleveland City Councilman (white) singles out drug dealers (mostly Black) in his ward and actually calls them, "good for nothing........ect, ect, ect. on television and is praised for his choice of words would lend one to believe that political correctness is dead (thank God for good things) here. 

The system works best in countries with populations that are 
accustomed to a very high degree of regulation, Germany comes to mind 
as an excellent example and in particular the Deutsche Demokratische 
Republik (communist east Germany before 1989). My own encounter 
with the DDR in 1989 game me the impression that everyone was 
watching everyone in East Berlin ... that one would turn in his own 
mother or sister for fare evasion because if they did not do so, some 
one would turn in both of them. Ten years later I watched in Erfurt 
(again in eastern unified Germany) as a fare evader knocked down a 
policeman and another passenger in his successful escape from being 
caught. Regardless of that unique case in Erfurt, the system works 
well in Germany because Germans are very much accustomed to 
regulation in all aspects of their lives and accept it willingly.

HrB: Wonder is they had proof of payment between 1932 and 1945?

The Netherlands, in my opinion was populated with people much like 
ourselves. The hell with soccer. On our first visit back in the 
1970s I came home thinking that fare evasion was the national sport. 
I must have been pretty much on target because a few years ago the 
nation as a whole went back to on-board fare collection on buses and 
streetcars. The nobel experiment of buying tickets in vending 
machines and trusting the populace had failed.

HrB: Sometimes, even a country in Europe fails.


It doesn't work too well in certain English cities either. In 
Sheffield, for example, the local hooligans were smashing the ticket 
vending machines, extracting the cash boxes and taking them home. 
I'm not sure how the Brits resolved that issue. Part of the 
resolution was privatizing the bus and tram system, if that's called 
a solution.

HrB: That seems to be all the Brits are good at anymore......vandalism and privatization. Ah, remember the days of, "the Sun never sets on the British Empire?" Now the Sun can hardly find the British Empire !

I remember watching one way to enforce a proof of payment system that 
worked flawlessly. Many systems claim they have only a one percent 
or a half percent evasion rate, and they calculate it by the number 
of tickets written divided by the number of fares the collect plus 
the evaders. What is missing in that equation are the passengers 
that dash for the open doors as soon as they see the police enter the 
train. Well, in Grenoble, France, I watched as one policemen entered 
every door of the train. There are five doors on one of those 
articulated cars, and I think there actually six policemen in the 
team. There was no escape. Within minutes they had one blushing 
individual out on the sidewalk and the ticket book was out. They 
only captured on evader and they inspected everyone. (Yes I had a 
day ticket.) I think Grenoble had a pretty honest low rate of fare 
evasion.

HrB: Good system.

Now, if Cleveland wants to come on to its trains with an 82nd 
Airborne style group of uniformed officers, one at each door, the 
system will work quite well. Otherwise, you will have one percent 
published evasion, and the revenue will probably drop by about 30 
percent and the politicians will be looking for a way to make up the 
difference.

HrB: You have never met our transit police ! Also their four new officers, Kurt, Max, Marcos, and Wilhelm. Four of the largest German Shepherds I have ever seen. They have such large teeth ! They are also supposed to get two more dogs soon now.

Cynical Fred / f3

On Aug 25, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Herb Brannon wrote:

> Sometime in the next several months GCRTA will embark on the 
> "German Fare System" on both the Red Line (heavy rail rapid 
> transit) and the Silver Line (Euclid Avenue Bus Rapid Transit). 
> There will be ticket machines at every station on both lines. There 
> will also be "inspection teams" composed of a ticket inspector, 
> supervisor and transit police officer. The fine for not having a 
> ticket is set at $150.00 plus court costs. The rapid transit fare 
> is $1.75. I don't think many, if any, cities in the U.S. have 
> "proof of payment" fare collection. This should be interesting.
> robert simpson wrote: I once resided in Germany 
> and remember that each hour the radio stations also broadcast a 
> series of five (I think) "beeps" and the last "beep" was exactly 
> when the second-hand crossed 12. Don't know how they synchronized 
> all the clocks but they did. Each station of the U-Bahn or the S- 
> Bahn had schedules posted and the trains were precisely on-time.
>
> In those days (1980's), they had an honor system when you purchased 
> a ticket from a machine but it wasn't collected. Periodically, 
> however, a team would enter the cars and politely ask to see their 
> tickets. No ticket resulted in an immediate fine (rather substantial).
>
> Bob
>
> Fred Schneider wrote:
> The note is called thinking out loud or planting ideas.
>
> We can get ideas in the strangest of places. This afternoon I was
> watching a children's show on PBS. The subject was watches and time
> and clocks. The skit started with the actor being asked what time
> is it. He pulled up his sleeve and asked where? New York?
> Chicago? Los Angeles? London? He had watches set for
> everywhere. Digital watches. Analog watches. A sand clock that
> didn't work very well because he had to turn his arm upside-down
> every three minutes.
>
> Do you have any idea where I'm leading you all?
>
> No?
>
> Many of our guests in trolley museums have no idea that trolleys ran
> on tracks. They have no idea that than use electric motors. They
> have no idea that they get the power from a wire overhead.
>
> They don't know that you have to pay a fare to ride because they do 
> it.
>
> And it just occurred to me this afternoon that most ever saw a
> schedule. Most do not understand the relationship between a
> timetable and a clock.
>
> Now do you know where I'm going with this?
>
> I've included the Pittsburgh Railways web site because some of those
> guys are museum members. Some interested. Some may want to help.
>
> I'm think how train stations in Europe always have platform clocks.
> I think Swiss Federal Railways may have even linked all the station
> clocks in the entire country together because I've never found them
> to deviate by seconds from one another. If you are in some of those
> countries like Switzerland or Germany, when the second hand moves to
> the top of its sweep, the train usually starts moving out of the
> station.
>
> Now where do we get a large platform clock to be installed next to
> the platform at Arden (Richfol, and perhaps later moved to the east
> site) so we can show the public (particularly children) how schedules
> and a clock relate?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Herb Brannon
>
>






Herb Brannon