[PRCo] Re: PCCs in Operation_--_SF-Muni

[Jim Holland]

Joshua gave us a nice encapsulated interpretation of the ADA Law.
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Wrote to SF list about SF-Muni F-line and have 2 responses so far which 
are included here;  should have asked about future of 4008 and 4009 but 
didn't  --  sorry.
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Rick Laubscher is a Bechtel employee I believe and Highly Active with 
Market Street Railway which strongly promotes the F-line and is largely 
responsible for the existence of same!
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Peter Ehrlich, former member of this list, is a retired SF-Muni F-line 
Operator with roots in New York and an excellent handle on everything 
and anything TrolleyCar.
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Jim___Holland
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> Jim Holland wrote:
>
>> There may be a line that is crossed somewhere on the ADA issue. 
>> Special platforms were built at stops for wheelchairs; portable ramp 
>> from TrolleyCar to platform is set in place manually by the operator 
>> on PCCs. Don't know requirements about older equipment. I may have 
>> heard but don't remember. Activists have considerable influence in SF 
>> as most seem to know.
>

>> Joshua Dunfield wrote:
>
>
> The ADA tried pretty hard to not cause massive disruption in the short 
> term.   Historic routes are exempt; vehicles already in use in 1990 
> are exempt.
> (See Section 12142 of the ADA:
> http://finduslaw.com/americans_with_disabilities_act_of_1990_ada_42_u_s_code_chapter_126
> )
>
> The "PCC-II"s on the 15 were rather obviously remanufactured, so 
> they're not exempt. OTOH, most of the Market-Frankford and Broad 
> Street Subway stations, even important ones like 15th/City Hall, are 
> not ADA-compliant. I assume they fall under 12147(b)(1)(2)(B):
>
> (B) Extension for extraordinarily expensive structural changes The 
> Secretary may extend the 3-year period under subparagraph
> (A) up to a 30-year period for key stations in a rapid rail or light 
> rail system which stations need extraordinarily expensive structural 
> changes to, or replacement of, existing facilities; except that by the 
> last day of the 20th year following July 26, 1990, at least 2/3 of 
> such key stations must be readily accessible to and usable by 
> individuals with disabilities.
>
> At their current rate I doubt SEPTA will make the deadline, unless 
> they've managed to interpret "key stations" to leave out most of 
> Center City.
>
> -j.

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Jim Holland PRCoPCC at ... wrote:

>> Desire to learn more about how ADA is implemented in regard to 
>> Historic Vehicles and the F-Line in particular. This has been touched 
>> upon in the past but it is a little difficult to find in Noah's 
>> ArkIves!! If anyone can provide a short quick reply, it would be most 
>> appreciated!!
>
>> .
>> .
>> If the ex-SEPTA PCCs had gone directly into SF-Muni service WithOut 
>> rehab, would the ADA law require that they be ADA accessible?
>

>> "ricklaubscher"  <ricklaubscher at ...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jim, here are responses to your questions based on my knowledge...in 
>> CAPS for clarity (I'm not yelling :)
>
>
> YES. THE LAW COVERS NEW LINES STARTED PAST A CERTAIN DATE (SOMETIME IN 
> THE LATE 1980S, IIRC). IN THE CASE OF THE F-LINE, MUNI ARGUED THAT THE 
> SECTION BETWEEN EAST BAY TERMINAL AND DUBOCE WAS AN EXISTING LINE, AND 
> AS SUCH, ONLY "KEY STOPS" ON THAT SEGMENT NEEDED TO BE ACCESSIBLE. 
> THAT SAVED MUNI FROM HAVING TO TRY TO WIDEN ISLANDS OPPOSITE BART 
> ENTRYWAYS TO ADA STANDARDS, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN BOTH DIFFICULT 
> (IMPOSSIBLE IN A FEW CASES) AND VERY EXPENSIVE. ALL 'NEW' TRACKAGE 
> (LOWER MARKET, EMBARCADERO, EVEN THE REPLACED TRACKAGE FROM DUBOCE TO 
> CASTRO ON MARKET) WAS REQUIRED TO HAVE EVERY STOP ADA ACCESSIBLE, 
> MEANING WHEELCHAIR RAMPS.
>
> JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE (OR BUY) NON-ACCESSIBLE EQUIPMENT DOESN'T MEAN 
> YOU CAN USE IT ON A NEW LINE. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING ANYWAY.
>
>> .
>> Did the Extensive Rebuilding of the ex-SEPTA PCCs require that these 
>> PCCs be ADA accessible?
>
>
> WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE DONE WHETHER THE REBUILDING WAS EXTENSIVE OR NOT.
>
>> .
>> What is the story of SF-Muni PCC 1040 in relation to the ADA 
>> law?       Will 1040 see regular F-Line service any time soon?
>
>
> WHILE MARKET STREET RAILWAY STRONGLY SUPPORTS THE RESTORATON OF 1040, 
> IT IS NOT CURRENTLY ON THE LIST, BUT WE HOPE TO WORK WITH MUNI TO GET 
> IT RESTORED AS PART OF AN ORDER OF EX-MUNI CARS WHEN MORE CARS ARE 
> NEEDED. IT WOULD NEED THE SAME KIND OF MODIFICATIONS TO FRONT SEATS 
> THAT THE EX-SEPTA (AND EX-NEWARK) CARS HAVE. OTHER THAN WHAT IS 
> ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED, WE STRONGLY ADVOCATE PRESERVATION OF THE REST OF 
> THE CAR'S ORIGINAL INTERIOR, INCLUDING THE ORIGINAL CONDUCTOR STATION 
> OPPOSITE THE CENTER DOORS.
>
>> .
>> Are the Milan Cars ADA accessible? YES.
>> .
>> What about Muni Originals like Car_#1, 130, etc. and ADAcompliance?
>
> THESE CARS HAVE HAD MINOR MODIFICATIONS (MOSTLY STANCHION RELOCATION 
> ON THE PLATFORMS) TO ALLOW WHEELCHAIRS TO BE STATIONED THERE PER ADA.
>
>> .
>> .
>> Thank You in Advance for your time and consideration.
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> Jim___Holland
>



> --- Jim Holland PRCoPCC at ... wrote:
>
>> Good Morning!
>> .
>> .
>> Desire to learn more about how ADA is implemented in regard to 
>> Historic Vehicles and the F-Line in particular. This has been touched 
>> upon in the past but it is a little difficult to find in Noah's
>
>> ArkIves!! If anyone can provide a short quick reply, it would be most 
>> appreciated!!
>> .
>> .
>> If the ex-SEPTA PCCs had gone directly into SF-Muni service WithOut 
>> rehab, would the ADA law require that they be ADA accessible?
>> .
>> Did the Extensive Rebuilding of the ex-SEPTA PCCs require that these 
>> PCCs be ADA accessible?
>> .
>> What is the story of SF-Muni PCC 1040 in relation to the ADA law?   
>> Will 1040 see regular F-Line service any time soon?
>> .
>> Are the Milan Cars ADA accessible? If not, will there be provision 
>> for ADA accessibility any time soon?
>
>> .
>> What about Muni Originals like Car_#1, 130, etc. and ADA compliance?
>
>> .
>> .
>> Thank You in Advance for your time and consideration.
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> Jim___Holland
>

>> Peter Ehrlich <milantram at ...> wrote:
>
>
> The F-Line ferom Van Ness westward, and from Main Street northward, is 
> 100% accessible, with wayside platforms. This was an ADA requirement 
> as those portions were considered new services. On Market Street, 
> however, like the key stops on the N_Judah, selected locations have 
> ADA accessibility.
>
> Even had the PCCs not been rehabbed, ADA would have been required. All 
> PCCs, Milan cars and vintage cars carry folding aluminum bridge plates 
> for use at the platforms. On the PCCs, the bridge plate is carried in 
> a locker behind the operator, and the front door is used. On the Milan 
> cars, the locker is at the rear of the car, and the motorperson uses 
> the center door,, opening and closing the door by means of the 
> passenger emergency stop switch. He/she then directs the wheelchair 
> user toward the rear of the car, where a folding bench is available. 
> Most savvy Milan car operators, once they remove the folding bridge, 
> then stash it next to the farebox up front. On Cars 1, 130, 162 and 
> 798, loading is/will be done at the rear entrance, and the user stays 
> on the platform. On car 952, the front door is used, and the patron 
> sits to the left of the motorman.
>
> Actual operation is usually quite efficient, except at those locations 
> where the mechanical lift is required (Church i/b, %th Street both 
> directions, and 1st Street inbound).
>
> Car 1040, along with several other Baby Tens, is stockpiled for future 
> rebuilding, once funding becomes available. A contract to rebuild the 
> remaining 4 "Torpedoes" is under review by Capital Projects at this 
> time and will be awarded soon.
>
> Milantram
>
>
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