[PRCo] Re: Grades

Tue May 29 19:10:51 EDT 2007

Concerning wood vs. steel cars, there would be fewer splinters with a steel 
car.  From some of the news accounts, particularly run-aways, it seemed to 
be the splinters that did the most damage to passengers.  Also the matter of 
glass fragments, but this would not make any difference until introduction 
of safety glass.

With a B controller, still must go to handbrake for final stop.  That is not 
needed with air.

There was a reason the traction firms went to air brakes, and it would seem 
that it involved safety.

John

>From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 18:22:16 -0400
>
>Application time for a B controller?   Remember that a PCC is nothing
>more than a B controller with foot pedals.   If you've got a fast
>hand, you can probably stop a car in an emergency faster than with
>air because you don't require time to charge up a pipe.
>
>However, I'm speaking without a whole lot of experience.  It is
>difficult for us Americans to get experience today on B
>controllers.   My own experience is limited to a few European cars at
>National Capital and a recreated London double-deck tram at Crich.
>If you want a practical answer, pay me to go qualify as an operator
>at Crich!!!!   I'd love to do that.
>
>Regarding the strength of wood versus steel cars.  I cannot query
>Russ Jackson because he is on vacation.   I'll send this by blind
>carbon to Bruce Bente and Phil Craig.   For their insights.
>
>For one thing, you traditionally did not want a car that totally
>withstand a collision with another car because then the stop will get
>the passengers every time.   It's much better to smash a few people
>in the vestible that squash everyone flying into the bulkhead at 40
>miles per hour.   Therefore you may cars to collapse incrementally.
>The weakest point in any car will be the platform knees.   The two
>motormen are usually sacrificed to save the passengers.   But are 8 x
>12 inch oak timbers on a single truck Brill semi-convertible weaker
>than lightweight steel girders on a Birney car?   I think I would
>rather be in the 1906 Brill.
>
>Note too that accidents you see in museums today, such as the
>demolition of 1050 in Baltimore a year ago in a non-revenue incident,
>involve cars that are 110 years old.   No one planned to have cars
>with oak frames running that long.   The design life of oak was less
>than 100 years.   So we need new platform needs, a new dasher and a
>new canopy.
>
>Finally, cars in 1900 did not have safety appliances.   Those were
>added after 1916 when we began to run one-man cars.   In
>Pennsylvania, the PUC demanded dead-man control on all one-man cars
>after 1938.   Now look around you and see what we have forgotten.
>None of the Gomaco heritage cars for Tampa, Little Balls (Rocks,
>Rock), Memphis, for example have deadman control and they all are run
>with only one man.
>
>I have probably mentioned this tale before.   Harold Cox, when he was
>doing his PRT / PTC roster book, was unable to find scrap dates.
>But he was privy to a wealth of accident information.   He told me
>that on average an accident report was submitted for every car in the
>fleet every month.   Yes, you read that correctly ... every 30
>days.   So he simply laid out a paper spreadsheet and started putting
>x's in it.   And if he didn't record one for 90 days, then he
>concluded that the last accident was one hell of a mess and they
>wrote the car off.   Was it hand brakes, or air brakes, or wood
>cars ... no I think it was just a mix of narrow streets and careless
>passengers and neighborhood kids sneaking rides.    But if you have a
>lot of young operators, cars are going to be inherently unsafe.   Why
>do you think PennDOT doesn't want you to drive a bus before you are
>18 and insurance companies would rather the employer not hire you
>before 23 or 25?   Pitt Ohio Express now has an advertisement on the
>internet for truck drivers ... minimum age 23.
>
>On May 29, 2007, at 12:49 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Fred
> >
> > Was referring to roster from PTM/PMRA dating to circa mid-1960s.
> > Copies of
> > the news articles involving wrecks went to Dave Hamley, who
> > mentioned that
> > the news articles solved the reason for some gaps in the roster.
> > It was an
> > every car roster, not roster by series.
> >
> > Ken asked about financial support for construction of the early
> > Pgh. lines.
> > Apparently wasn't a concern until operational experience showed
> > that larger
> > cars needed something better then a B-controller and a handbrake.
> > And when
> > things did go terribly wrong, something better then a wooden car
> > body to
> > protect the customers.  The news articles tend to be rather
> > gruesome, just
> > as you probably found with the Marietta accident.
> >
> > As you noted, air brakes were not part of the original investment
> > of the
> > predecessor companies.  I wasn't sure about that.   Thanks for
> > confirmation.
> >
> > Perhaps as cars got larger and faster, the B-controller required
> > too much
> > reaction time to apply emergency braking.  Something quicker was
> > needed??????
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
> >> Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:33:33 -0400
> >>
> >> I sent you the roster several year ago....
> >>
> >> First a basic lesson in drum controller terminology:
> >>
> >> K controllers are the most common, garden variety machines in the
> >> United States.  They are designed to both cut out resistance and
> >> transition motors from series to parallel.
> >>
> >> R controllers are very uncommon.   They are in a sense "rheostatic"
> >> except that they have a finite number of points without any
> >> transition from series to parallel.   They were generally used on
> >> mine or industrial locomotives.   You might have also found them on
> >> the Chicago Tunnel locomotives.
> >>
> >> B controllers were nothing more than K controllers that when operated
> >> backwards beyond the off position set up a brake loop and put all the
> >> resistance in, and then cut it back out ... the same as you would do
> >> plugging a car in an emergency stop by throwing the canopy switch,
> >> pulling the reverse key, and then notching up.
> >>
> >> Now the PRC roster I sent out did not show compressors or brake
> >> valves but it did show controllers.   If a car had B controller, it
> >> was pretty logical that it didn't have a compressor.   It probably
> >> simply had a hand brake to make the final stop.
> >>
> >> All of the early post-consolidation Pittsburgh Railways cars, both
> >> single and double truck, both open and closed, had B-8 or B-23
> >> controllers up through the 3400s.  The 3500s in 1908 were the first
> >> with K controllers and probably, therefore, the first with air
> >> brakes.     Some of those early cars like 3487 in 1902, 1903 etc. had
> >> B controllers and were probably retrofitted with air.   If you look
> >> at 3487 you will note that the brake valve has been inserted into the
> >> controller and not installed as a stand adjacent thereto.   The
> >> roster shows the 3400s had a mix of B and K controllers but I suspect
> >> that was after rebuilding.
> >>
> >> The Baltimore 1902 cars were hand brake while the 1906 semi-
> >> convertibles had air brakes.
> >>
> >> I suspect the same was true in Philadelphia with the pre-Mitten
> >> standard cars probably having hand brakes and the Nearsides coming
> >> with air.   A lot of Conestoga Traction Company's earlier cars were
> >> retrofitted with air brakes in the early years of the 20th century.
> >>
> >> West Penn might have been the last system in the United States to use
> >> B controllers in normal service.   They used B-50s (they were
> >> essentially K-35s designed for dynamic braking) on the 286-297 series
> >> and 701-739 until 1952.   Pittsburgh apparently either scrapped all
> >> of their cars with B controllers or converted the cars to air brakes.
> >>
> >> I suspect that runaways in the early years might have had as much to
> >> do with the hot tempers of youth as it did with the frailties of the
> >> equipment.   Remember that the industry expanded rapidly between 1890
> >> and 1900 and we had a lot of men in their late teens and twenties
> >> running the equipment.   Remember that was the cause of the 1917
> >> Christmas wreck.
> >>
> >> The worst wreck in the history of Pennsylvania Traction Co., a
> >> predecessor of Conestoga Traction, of Lancaster, happened on a summer
> >> evening in 1896 when two kids brought an 18-foot bodied single truck
> >> car down the hill from Chickies Park into the outskirts of Columbia
> >> Pa like a rocket sled.   It had rained.   The rails were slippery.
> >> The crew ... both motorman and conductor were under age 20.   The
> >> motorman had so much strength we actually broke the brake chain.
> >> The car was overloaded ... can you imagine over 100 people packed
> >> like sardines into an 18 foot long body of a single truck car ... the
> >> entire car including platforms did measure more than 30 feet long.
> >> When he hit the curve at the bottom of the hill at Laurel Hill
> >> Cemetery, the car rolled over on its side killing the motorman, the
> >> conductor, the mayor of Columbia, the chief of police of Columbia and
> >> two others and injuring almost everyone else.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 28, 2007, at 11:12 PM, John Swindler wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> When did PRC start buying steel cars and cars equipped with air
> >>> brakes; and
> >>> how does this compare with other cities???
> >>>
> >>> From about 3 months worth of Pgh Dispatch, circa 1903, there were
> >>> run-aways
> >>> on Troy Hill, Wilmerding, Murray Ave., Homewood, Glenwood RR
> >>> crossing  --
> >>> and possibly more.  It answered some questions concerning missing
> >>> car
> >>> numbers in PRC fleet.
> >>>
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: "Ken & Tracie" <ktjosephson at earthlink.net>
> >>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
> >>>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 11:39:15 -0700
> >>>>
> >>>> I have to wonder if Pittsburgh Railways' predecessors had a hard
> >>>> time
> >>>> getting financial backing to build some of those steep-grade
> >>>> lines. Steel
> >>>> wheels on often damp steel rails using conventional
> >>>> traction...somebody had
> >>>> to have some doubts before shelling out the cash.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ed, Fred, any records on this?
> >>>>
> >>>> K.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:03 AM
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Federal Street from Perrysville down past Henderson is also not
> >>>>> shown
> >>>>> and that has to be around 8 to 9 percent.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On May 27, 2007, at 12:27 AM, Boris Cefer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> True, but you don't ask me why.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> B
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Jim Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
> >>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:36 AM
> >>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Boris Cefer wrote:
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>>> It seems the subject of the jerky operation of 1711 somewhat
> >>>>>>>> evaporated...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But there is an interesting chart which I got from Russ
> >>>>>>>> Jackson.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Boris
> >>>>>>> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Pgh%
> >>>>>>> 20Grades.jpg
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>> Interesting that the grade for the tunnel is not listed!!!!!!!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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