[PRCo] Re: Grades
Fred Schneider
fwschneider at comcast.net
Wed May 30 08:52:17 EDT 2007
So? You're making an issue out of an non issue. It isn't a
problem if you're trained right. And those people were. We
expected a lot more then. We also got rid of the incompetent ones.
I'm still not convinced it's a mechanical issue John. West Penn
went to dynamics because they worked better on their grades than
air. Pittsburgh went the other way.
On May 29, 2007, at 7:38 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>
> PCC was an integrated brake system. Operator did not first have to
> apply
> dynamics, then apply final stoppiing brake.
>
> And West Penn was one out of how many transit systems in PA? And it
> generally wasn't operating in mixed traffic. It's problem was
> motorist
> contesting grade crossings.
>
> John
>
>
>
>> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:21:27 -0400
>>
>> Then why was the all-electric PCC so successful? Why do dynamics and
>> hydraulics work so well? John, you're sounding like a bureaucrat.
>> West Penn was not particularly noted for their accidents and they
>> didn't have air on any Coke Region cars except for the 830s and the
>> freight motors and some work cars.
>>
>> On May 29, 2007, at 7:10 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Concerning wood vs. steel cars, there would be fewer splinters with
>>> a steel
>>> car. From some of the news accounts, particularly run-aways, it
>>> seemed to
>>> be the splinters that did the most damage to passengers. Also the
>>> matter of
>>> glass fragments, but this would not make any difference until
>>> introduction
>>> of safety glass.
>>>
>>> With a B controller, still must go to handbrake for final stop.
>>> That is not
>>> needed with air.
>>>
>>> There was a reason the traction firms went to air brakes, and it
>>> would seem
>>> that it involved safety.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>>>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 18:22:16 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Application time for a B controller? Remember that a PCC is
>>>> nothing
>>>> more than a B controller with foot pedals. If you've got a fast
>>>> hand, you can probably stop a car in an emergency faster than with
>>>> air because you don't require time to charge up a pipe.
>>>>
>>>> However, I'm speaking without a whole lot of experience. It is
>>>> difficult for us Americans to get experience today on B
>>>> controllers. My own experience is limited to a few European
>>>> cars at
>>>> National Capital and a recreated London double-deck tram at Crich.
>>>> If you want a practical answer, pay me to go qualify as an operator
>>>> at Crich!!!! I'd love to do that.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the strength of wood versus steel cars. I cannot query
>>>> Russ Jackson because he is on vacation. I'll send this by blind
>>>> carbon to Bruce Bente and Phil Craig. For their insights.
>>>>
>>>> For one thing, you traditionally did not want a car that totally
>>>> withstand a collision with another car because then the stop
>>>> will get
>>>> the passengers every time. It's much better to smash a few people
>>>> in the vestible that squash everyone flying into the bulkhead at 40
>>>> miles per hour. Therefore you may cars to collapse incrementally.
>>>> The weakest point in any car will be the platform knees. The two
>>>> motormen are usually sacrificed to save the passengers. But
>>>> are 8 x
>>>> 12 inch oak timbers on a single truck Brill semi-convertible weaker
>>>> than lightweight steel girders on a Birney car? I think I would
>>>> rather be in the 1906 Brill.
>>>>
>>>> Note too that accidents you see in museums today, such as the
>>>> demolition of 1050 in Baltimore a year ago in a non-revenue
>>>> incident,
>>>> involve cars that are 110 years old. No one planned to have cars
>>>> with oak frames running that long. The design life of oak was
>>>> less
>>>> than 100 years. So we need new platform needs, a new dasher and a
>>>> new canopy.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, cars in 1900 did not have safety appliances. Those were
>>>> added after 1916 when we began to run one-man cars. In
>>>> Pennsylvania, the PUC demanded dead-man control on all one-man cars
>>>> after 1938. Now look around you and see what we have forgotten.
>>>> None of the Gomaco heritage cars for Tampa, Little Balls (Rocks,
>>>> Rock), Memphis, for example have deadman control and they all
>>>> are run
>>>> with only one man.
>>>>
>>>> I have probably mentioned this tale before. Harold Cox, when
>>>> he was
>>>> doing his PRT / PTC roster book, was unable to find scrap dates.
>>>> But he was privy to a wealth of accident information. He told me
>>>> that on average an accident report was submitted for every car
>>>> in the
>>>> fleet every month. Yes, you read that correctly ... every 30
>>>> days. So he simply laid out a paper spreadsheet and started
>>>> putting
>>>> x's in it. And if he didn't record one for 90 days, then he
>>>> concluded that the last accident was one hell of a mess and they
>>>> wrote the car off. Was it hand brakes, or air brakes, or wood
>>>> cars ... no I think it was just a mix of narrow streets and
>>>> careless
>>>> passengers and neighborhood kids sneaking rides. But if you
>>>> have a
>>>> lot of young operators, cars are going to be inherently
>>>> unsafe. Why
>>>> do you think PennDOT doesn't want you to drive a bus before you are
>>>> 18 and insurance companies would rather the employer not hire you
>>>> before 23 or 25? Pitt Ohio Express now has an advertisement on
>>>> the
>>>> internet for truck drivers ... minimum age 23.
>>>>
>>>> On May 29, 2007, at 12:49 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Fred
>>>>>
>>>>> Was referring to roster from PTM/PMRA dating to circa mid-1960s.
>>>>> Copies of
>>>>> the news articles involving wrecks went to Dave Hamley, who
>>>>> mentioned that
>>>>> the news articles solved the reason for some gaps in the roster.
>>>>> It was an
>>>>> every car roster, not roster by series.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken asked about financial support for construction of the early
>>>>> Pgh. lines.
>>>>> Apparently wasn't a concern until operational experience showed
>>>>> that larger
>>>>> cars needed something better then a B-controller and a handbrake.
>>>>> And when
>>>>> things did go terribly wrong, something better then a wooden car
>>>>> body to
>>>>> protect the customers. The news articles tend to be rather
>>>>> gruesome, just
>>>>> as you probably found with the Marietta accident.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you noted, air brakes were not part of the original investment
>>>>> of the
>>>>> predecessor companies. I wasn't sure about that. Thanks for
>>>>> confirmation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps as cars got larger and faster, the B-controller required
>>>>> too much
>>>>> reaction time to apply emergency braking. Something quicker was
>>>>> needed??????
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:33:33 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I sent you the roster several year ago....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First a basic lesson in drum controller terminology:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> K controllers are the most common, garden variety machines in the
>>>>>> United States. They are designed to both cut out resistance and
>>>>>> transition motors from series to parallel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> R controllers are very uncommon. They are in a sense
>>>>>> "rheostatic"
>>>>>> except that they have a finite number of points without any
>>>>>> transition from series to parallel. They were generally used on
>>>>>> mine or industrial locomotives. You might have also found
>>>>>> them on
>>>>>> the Chicago Tunnel locomotives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> B controllers were nothing more than K controllers that when
>>>>>> operated
>>>>>> backwards beyond the off position set up a brake loop and put
>>>>>> all the
>>>>>> resistance in, and then cut it back out ... the same as you
>>>>>> would do
>>>>>> plugging a car in an emergency stop by throwing the canopy
>>>>>> switch,
>>>>>> pulling the reverse key, and then notching up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now the PRC roster I sent out did not show compressors or brake
>>>>>> valves but it did show controllers. If a car had B
>>>>>> controller, it
>>>>>> was pretty logical that it didn't have a compressor. It
>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> simply had a hand brake to make the final stop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of the early post-consolidation Pittsburgh Railways cars,
>>>>>> both
>>>>>> single and double truck, both open and closed, had B-8 or B-23
>>>>>> controllers up through the 3400s. The 3500s in 1908 were the
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> with K controllers and probably, therefore, the first with air
>>>>>> brakes. Some of those early cars like 3487 in 1902, 1903
>>>>>> etc. had
>>>>>> B controllers and were probably retrofitted with air. If you
>>>>>> look
>>>>>> at 3487 you will note that the brake valve has been inserted
>>>>>> into the
>>>>>> controller and not installed as a stand adjacent thereto. The
>>>>>> roster shows the 3400s had a mix of B and K controllers but I
>>>>>> suspect
>>>>>> that was after rebuilding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Baltimore 1902 cars were hand brake while the 1906 semi-
>>>>>> convertibles had air brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect the same was true in Philadelphia with the pre-Mitten
>>>>>> standard cars probably having hand brakes and the Nearsides
>>>>>> coming
>>>>>> with air. A lot of Conestoga Traction Company's earlier cars
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> retrofitted with air brakes in the early years of the 20th
>>>>>> century.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> West Penn might have been the last system in the United States
>>>>>> to use
>>>>>> B controllers in normal service. They used B-50s (they were
>>>>>> essentially K-35s designed for dynamic braking) on the 286-297
>>>>>> series
>>>>>> and 701-739 until 1952. Pittsburgh apparently either
>>>>>> scrapped all
>>>>>> of their cars with B controllers or converted the cars to air
>>>>>> brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that runaways in the early years might have had as
>>>>>> much to
>>>>>> do with the hot tempers of youth as it did with the frailties of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> equipment. Remember that the industry expanded rapidly between
>>>>>> 1890
>>>>>> and 1900 and we had a lot of men in their late teens and twenties
>>>>>> running the equipment. Remember that was the cause of the 1917
>>>>>> Christmas wreck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The worst wreck in the history of Pennsylvania Traction Co., a
>>>>>> predecessor of Conestoga Traction, of Lancaster, happened on a
>>>>>> summer
>>>>>> evening in 1896 when two kids brought an 18-foot bodied single
>>>>>> truck
>>>>>> car down the hill from Chickies Park into the outskirts of
>>>>>> Columbia
>>>>>> Pa like a rocket sled. It had rained. The rails were
>>>>>> slippery.
>>>>>> The crew ... both motorman and conductor were under age 20. The
>>>>>> motorman had so much strength we actually broke the brake chain.
>>>>>> The car was overloaded ... can you imagine over 100 people packed
>>>>>> like sardines into an 18 foot long body of a single truck
>>>>>> car ... the
>>>>>> entire car including platforms did measure more than 30 feet
>>>>>> long.
>>>>>> When he hit the curve at the bottom of the hill at Laurel Hill
>>>>>> Cemetery, the car rolled over on its side killing the
>>>>>> motorman, the
>>>>>> conductor, the mayor of Columbia, the chief of police of
>>>>>> Columbia and
>>>>>> two others and injuring almost everyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 28, 2007, at 11:12 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When did PRC start buying steel cars and cars equipped with air
>>>>>>> brakes; and
>>>>>>> how does this compare with other cities???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From about 3 months worth of Pgh Dispatch, circa 1903, there
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> run-aways
>>>>>>> on Troy Hill, Wilmerding, Murray Ave., Homewood, Glenwood RR
>>>>>>> crossing --
>>>>>>> and possibly more. It answered some questions concerning
>>>>>>> missing
>>>>>>> car
>>>>>>> numbers in PRC fleet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "Ken & Tracie" <ktjosephson at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 11:39:15 -0700
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to wonder if Pittsburgh Railways' predecessors had a
>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> getting financial backing to build some of those steep-grade
>>>>>>>> lines. Steel
>>>>>>>> wheels on often damp steel rails using conventional
>>>>>>>> traction...somebody had
>>>>>>>> to have some doubts before shelling out the cash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed, Fred, any records on this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> K.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:03 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Federal Street from Perrysville down past Henderson is also
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> shown
>>>>>>>>> and that has to be around 8 to 9 percent.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 27, 2007, at 12:27 AM, Boris Cefer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> True, but you don't ask me why.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> B
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jim Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Grades
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Boris Cefer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems the subject of the jerky operation of 1711
>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>> evaporated...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But there is an interesting chart which I got from Russ
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jackson.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Boris
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Pgh%
>>>>>>>>>>> 20Grades.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting that the grade for the tunnel is not
>>>>>>>>>>> listed!!!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> _
>>>>>>> PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-
>>>>>>> winning
>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>> Live Hotmail.
>>>>>>> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-
>>>>>>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> Live Hotmail.
>>>>> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-
>>>>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning
>>> Windows
>>> Live Hotmail.
>>> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-
>>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live
> Hotmail.
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-
> us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
>
>
More information about the Pittsburgh-railways
mailing list