[PRCo] Re: Liberty 12th Wye_--_Why?~?~?~!~!~!

[Herb Brannon]

I was going to answer Jim back, then decided to "let sleeping dogs lay" and not do it. However, the entire time I lived in Pittsburgh (1971 to 1986) Liberty was always a two-way street. Penn, though, was one-way, inbound.
Bob Dietrich <bdietrich at comcast.net> wrote:  I haven't been following this thread closely (sorry but I'm a little
overwhelmed by the volume this past weekend) so I apologize. Has it been
established here that Liberty Avenue was a one-way street? If so when did
it revert back to two way. It is a two way street now and has been as long
as I remember. Penn Ave one-way inbound.



-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Jim
Holland
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 6:26 AM
To: - 1714 PRCo__WP__JTC -
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Liberty 12th Wye_--_Why?~?~?~!~!~!

> Herb wrote:
.
> Gee, something new.
.
Yes -- underscores what I said the other day -- there is More Than 
Enough to Learn about PRCo that we don't need Purposely OT posts - any 
topic can stray but I prefer to remain close to topic. We learned 
that there was an 86X.
.
> Yes, there was a route 86-East Liberty Express which
> ran on Liberty. This is probably why the switch was there
> .............so those cars could get over to Penn for
> their 'city loop.' The 86 ran well before 1940.
.
.
NO~!~!~! The Wye under discussion is built into the one and only 
outbound track. Agreed that the 86 was pre-1940, but in those days 
Liberty was a 2-way Street with Two TrolleyCar Tracks - one inbound and 
one outbound -- Same For Penn. Here is a photo which emphasizes 
this dated 1936.07.31, a little over 71-years ago:::
.
http://tinyurl.com/2w2oms
.
I doubt that we determined the precise date that Liberty // Penn went to 
one-way but 1936 to 1940 seems likely. While it is not uncommon for 
TrolleyCars to run against traffic, it is usually in more out of the way 
places -- Trafford comes to mind -- or was forced on the railway 
like through Charleroi or some of those river towns in the 1950s. It 
would be Quite Reasonable to assume that downtown Pittsburgh would 
disallow single track operation by trolleys in two directions on a one 
way street -- except for emergencies.
.
Thus the 86X could not use this switch under discussion. The 86X 
*-Apparently-* came into downtown Pgh on Double Track On Liberty - how 
it looped downtown is unknown at this time. (((As an aside -- in 
one of the photos the other day the photographer was standing on Penn 
near Stanwix looking West about 1945-1950 and the Second Track On Penn 
was still visible then. Before 1940, Penn had double track all the 
way to the Point Bridge from 32nd, from E.Liberty actually~!~!~! As 
mentioned, Liberty was double track from Fancourt in downtown all the 
way to Main. Wood and Smithfield were also double track and although 
unused, some of that remained well into the 1940s.)
.
Post 1940 (after 86X operations *-probably-* ceased) when both 
Liberty and Penn are One Way and when track is reconfigured results in 
the single track simple wye at 12th which was under discussion. We 
have discussed this before to an extent -- it has been mentioned that 
the extra trackage remaining on Liberty was *-probably-* for emergency 
detours, like flooding. Matt brought it altogether for me -- Penn 
could be flooded, TrolleyCars diverted to Liberty for both IB and OB 
which would take tremendous coordination but in those days it was second 
nature. Inbound cars would be running against traffic until 12th 
where they would turn right to Penn and resume normal route or another 
detour if necessary. I am including a copy Liberty // Penn only from 
the ERA map of 1949 as the detail is a little more plain. Note that 
IB cars from Penn and Butler could turn at 22nd, then R onto Liberty 
where they would need clearance to enter the single track to 12th where 
they return to Penn. If conditions warrant, Cars from Penn and 
Butler could be *wyed* by backing them up 32nd to Liberty then IB 
Liberty through two sets of single track to 12th.
.
.
-- 
*Jim Holland*
Studying *Pittsburgh Railways Company*

....................From 1930 -- 1950

*Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (PTM)*

http://www.pa-trolley.org/

*N.M.R.A.*

http://www.nmra.org/



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Herb Brannon