[PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?

Sun Aug 10 08:30:39 EDT 2008

Fred's take on ridership on West Chester is correct. Could it have lasted 
and flourished until now? A definite "maybe". It was certainly hauling 
nicely in 1954 when converted to bus operation. The area along the route has 
grown in population. And, as Fred points out, the ex-PRR Media-West Chester 
line is no longer a competitor.BUT, many of the new arrivals to the area do 
not have their major activities along the West Chester Pike-they are far 
more likely to work along the 202 corridor.On the other hand, it serves 2 
sizeable colleges w/ large numbers of commuter students, and the 
demographics and job markets are such that reverse commuting of support 
workers, low skills workers, hopital support staff,etc use the ex-Red Arrow 
lines from 69th St. in the AM and inbound in the PM. Same applies to 
hospital workers along the line who seem to be some of transit's most 
faithful users-look at Bryn Mawr on Route 100 @ 1130 pm and @ 230 pm. It 
would probably-and admittedly there is no hard data for woulda-shoulda-have 
done at least as well as Media- Sharon Hill and comparably to the Norristown 
High Speed Line-ex-P&W.So it might well-and we're all speculating-have done 
respectably, if not spectacularly. And  now every line, w/ high gas prices, 
has seen some bounce. I agree w/ Fred in part that ridership would almost 
certainly not be what it was in mid 50's, but that it was converted seemed 
less predictable than why let's say the Liberty Bell Limited(disclaimer-I 
LOVE the LVT!!!!) , which was hemorrhaging ridership and whose conversion 
seemed far more economically predictable.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?


> As I recall, West Chester ran every 15 minutes to Newtown Square and
> every half hour to West Chester on weekdays but the volume of
> business was heavy enough on Sundays to require a car every 15
> minutes all the way to West Chester!   Can you imagine ... an eight
> car base service on Sundays?
>
> I question how much of that business would still be there today.
>
> Remember when PATCO opened the line from Center City to Collinwood,
> Haddonfield and Lindenwold, average weekday boardings were around
> 39,000.   I think the line peaked in the low 40,000 ... perhaps up
> around 41,000 or 42,000 a day.   Because of the gradual decline in
> jobs in downtown Philadelphia since 1969, last year PATCO's average
> weekday ridership was around 33,000.
>
> I can remember huge crowds that used to swarm like locusts from the
> PST bus docks and streetcar platforms and the P&W to the Market
> Street elevated line back in the 1950s.   I can remember when it was
> routine to run the PST St Louies and the P&W Bullets in two car
> trains to handle rush hour crowds.     I know the intervals between
> cars has spread out drastically.   I think I can also remember 15
> minute late evening service on the P&W ... I remember coming out of
> 69th St about 9:15 or 9:30 on a Saturday night in 1958 in swinging
> load.    I'm putting that all in past tense.   The P&W (SEPTA R100)
> is 20 minutes day and 30 minutes evening on Saturdays today.
>
> Perhaps John Swindler can tell me what has happened to Market -
> Frankford patronage over 50 years?????
>
> The only think that could potentially keep PST West Chester cars
> hauling, if they were still there today, is the fact that SEPTA has
> also discontinued the Media - West Chester train service on the
> former Pennsylvania Railroad west of Elwyn.   Yes guys ... back in
> the 1950s there was 15 minute service on the trolley and hourly on
> the PRR to West Chester and both were under wire.
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Richard Allman wrote:
>
>> sorry for the delay, John-day job. Route 60 would now be a whole
>> lot lighter
>> than in the 60's and 70's due to depopulation and decline of the
>> 'hood.
>> Ditto 56 west of Broad, though East of there and through the Tacony
>> section,
>> it was and could be a brisk feeder to the El @ Erie Torresdale. I
>> guess the
>> stretch from Broad to the Hunting Park loop was short enough to
>> preempt
>> looping further east.The 53 corridor has also seen some decline both
>> numerically and demographically, w/ fewer people needing to get to
>> the Eris
>> stop of the Broad St. Subway for trip to Center City. Routes 47 and
>> 50? Part
>> of the routes traversed the section of the city aka "The Badlands"
>> where
>> drug and gang activity would scare the bejeepers out of anyone. The
>> Fifth
>> St. and Rising Sun corridors are semi-vibrant ethic areas-Korean,
>> Columbian,
>> Brazilian, but the trek to Center City would be slow, arduous, and
>> frightening, w/ no convenient interchange to Regional Rail or rapid
>> transit
>> divisions. The stretches of those lines from South Philly to Center
>> City?
>> Not sure but intuitively, seem like they should have been busy. Both
>> traversed what were and are highly populated areas, where many
>> residents had
>> employment connections to Center City, but that is merely a hunch.
>> Before
>> the bus conversion, those routes were off and on, trolley to bus
>> for years.
>> Interestingly, 23 and 47 were all-electric routes initially, after the
>> Nearside era. When they underwent temporary conversions, they later
>> came
>> back as mixed all-electric and air-electric operations after PTC
>> figured out
>> it could run all-electrics in the trolley subway. 50 was an all-
>> electric
>> route, but had the cars without the little apertures, aka the
>> Kansas City
>> cars, which also served part of 56. The line in the S.E. corner of
>> the state
>> that defensibly could and should have stayed a rail line is the
>> West Chester
>> Pike line-rising ridership @ time of conversion in June 1954, the
>> current
>> bus trip in peak hours is substantially longer than the trolley
>> trip in
>> 1954. At the time however, the moving of the line to the  median of
>> the
>> widened Pike which is wide enough to have accommodated the 2 track
>> line
>> seemed imprudent, especially since the reconfigured Pike had many more
>> traffic lights that the pre-existent 2 lane rural highway.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:30 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?
>>
>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> On Aug 3, 2008, at 3:16 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken
>>>>
>>>> The route 23 cars were seldom nearly empty, even into the SEPTA
>>>> era.   It is/was one of the heaviest routes in Philadelphia.  So is/
>>>> was 60 and 56.
>>>>
>>>> Route 53 Wayne Ave. was another matter.  And 47 and 50 were not
>>>> that busy either.
>>>>
>>>> I'd appreciate Rich's comments as I'm just trying to remember
>>>> ridership statistics from the 1980s.  Today would probably be a
>>>> different observation.  That is the reason for use of the past
>>>> tense above.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> To: pittsburgh-
>>>>> railways at dementia.org> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street
>>>>> car line?> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 10:31:43 -0700> > I do know for a
>>>>> fact that many, many people living along St. Louis' > Hodiamont
>>>>> line raised a big fuss when that line was slated for bustitution,
>>>>>> but they did not have the political clout the people in
>>>>> Philadelphia had > twenty years later to keep the nearly empty
>>>>> Route 23 cars shuttling past > their homes for ambience.....heck,
>>>>> even that line has been "suspended" since > the early 1990s.> > I
>>>>> do know some people in the South Hills put up a good fight to save
>>>>> the > Library, Drake and Mount Lebanon lines.> > Remember, though,
>>>>> some of the loudest streetcar opponents were motorists who >
>>>>> didn't live in a particular car line's corridor, but drove through
>>>>> it, > hating to drive on the tracks and getting "trapped" behind
>>>>> streetcars > picking up passengers.> > I know a person who rode
>>>>> and wanted the 42/38 saved, but !
>>>>  was happy when the > 53 was abandoned because he hating driving in
>>>> traffic with streetcars.> > K.> ----- Original Message ----- >
>>>> From: "Jerry MATT Matsick" <mtoytrain at bellsouth.net>> To:
>>>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008
>>>> 10:16 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?> > >
>>>>> My question when PRCo/PAT decided to cut a street car line, did
>>>> not the > > people fuss about it?> > I was in the Service during
>>>> the 60s, if I had been in town I would have > > tried to stop it,
>>>> but was> > it just the sign of the times? I remember when the drop
>>>> the Donora car? I > > was just 11 but I was> > upset. Now cities
>>>> are looking and the establishment of new RAIL LINES , > > I guess
>>>> it is what> > comes around goes around! Groups thought?> > Jerry
>>>> Matsick> > Former Donora/Pittsburgher (North Hills)> >> > --> >
>>>> Jerry "Matt" Matsick> > You don't stop laughing because> > you grow
>>>> old. You grow old> > because you stop laughing from the> > River
>>>> City by th!
>>>>  e sea!> > Jacksonville, Florida!> >> > -------------- Original
>>>> message
>>>>  from "Ken & Tracie" > > <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:
>>>> -------------- > >> >> >> OFF TOPIC WARNING!> >>> >>> >> -----
>>>> Original Message ----- > >> From: "Fred Schneider"> >> To:> >>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 5:28 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re:
>>>> Greyhound crime> >>> >>> >> >I love the choice of advertisements
>>>> that go with it, Philip. Teen> >> > teeth whiteners and high blood
>>>> pressure medicines! They're a hoot.> >>> >> Back in 1981 or '82,
>>>> some jerk in Waukesha, Wisconsin kidnapped his> >> estranged wife
>>>> (she lived across the street from me), murdered her,> >> hacksawed
>>>> her head from her body, dumped the body in a cornfield and > >>
>>>> burnt> >> the head in his parents' wood burning stove.> >>> >>
>>>> Anyway, I was listening to a news report about the case some months
>>>>>>> later.> >> Immediately after the newscaster mentioned that the
>>>> suspect had sawed off> >> his wife's head, they went to a
>>>> commercial break. The commercial was for > >> a> >> home
>>>> improvement store and began with the!
>>>>   sound of somebody sawing. Then > >> the> >> music started with
>>>> people cheerfully singing, "When you're working at > >> home,> >>
>>>> and you need a helping hand.............."> >>> >> K.> >>> >>> > > >
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live.
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>>>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLYIA_whichathlete_us
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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