[PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?

[Richard Allman]

Fred-don't forget the traffic and activity along Route 202 if instead of a 
left, you make a right coming from Lancaster-all the building and businesses 
in the area from Concordville to Wilmington- a major series of corporate and 
retail conglomerates, all very unlinked to transit useage!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?


> Yes on the LVT.    Randy Kulp wrote in his histories on the company
> that LVT recognized in the 1930s that the end was coming and that
> they were involved in a waiting game to see how long it would last.
> It was OK to buy someone else's more modern junk than their own junk,
> i.e. the C&LE Red Devils from 1930 contrasted with the 1916 Southern
> center entrance and 1912 Jewett cars they were running, but certainly
> not OK to buy totally new equipment.  Our mutual acquaintance Lester
> Wismer once said that he never saw a full car on the Liberty Bell
> Route after World War II.   Why?  We went from 1.731 million motor
> vehicles on Pennsylvania highways at the start of World War II to
> 1.700 million in 1945 to a whopping 2.70 million in 1951 when LVT
> quit.    buses on the original LVT line into Chestnut Hill, which was
> torn up if memory serves in 1926, were Ford 31Bs in the early
> 1950s.   I once had a print of one that Tom Collins took with a 127-
> size Kodak plastic box camera.  Lester Wismer had a picture of a bus
> with its driver in Souderton in 1952, taken as a favor for an old
> friend (a former motorman now being forced to grind gears).   What
> little traffic remained on the Bell Route fit comfortable in Brill
> C-31 buses.   I think, however, that the C-31s might have been
> running locals at that time and that LVT may have been running some
> trips with Aerocoaches directly from Allentown to center city
> Philadelphia.   I'm not sure when the service ended.   It was still
> hanging on when I went to the Motor Bus Society convention in Easton
> in 1955 but by then it may have been only the express service.   Oh,
> in 1955 we had 3.2 million motor vehicles on Pennsylvania's roads,
> almost twice the number in 1945 and the baby boomers weren't even old
> enough to have drivers licenses yet.  These were the wives driving
> who used to be on streetcars and buses.
>
> For those out of the area and unfamiliar with Rich's expression, "the
> 202 corridor," that is a classic example of building an expressway
> and having the traffic multiply logarithmically where it did not
> exist before.  US route 202 crossed route 30 (the Lincoln Highway)
> between Exton and Paoli, Pennsylvania and heads northeast realatively
> parallel to US 30 eventually reaching Norristown.   The old LVT
> trolley interurban was on the shoulder of 202 north of Norristown.
> If you continue north on US 202 you will ultimately reach the far
> western suburbs of New York City.   Now let's go back to
> Pennsylvania.   US 202 was converted to a four-lane expressway from
> US 30 to its juncture with the Valley Forge Interchange of the
> Pennsylvania Turnpike and the Schuylkill Expressway, thus making it a
> fast route from Exton to Centre City Philadelphia.   Over the next 30
> years the area along 202 on both sides of King of Prussia just
> mushroomed, leading Rich Allman to once joke to me that the largest
> employer in Chester, PA is now up in King of Prussia.
>
> Chester was once famous for Sun Shipbuilding (out of business), Sun
> Oil Company (SUNOCO), Westinghouse northeast of there (out of
> business), Baldwin Locomotive Company (gone and replaced by Boeing
> Vertol which I think is now also gone).   There was a major rayon
> factory that is also gone.    You get my drift.   So much for the
> geography lesson.
>
> Those were the great American suburbs built on the proposition that
> he who had an automobile had the right to breed with the head
> cheerleader.
>
> When is Lester going to celebrate the big Eight - Oh?
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Richard Allman wrote:
>
>> Fred's take on ridership on West Chester is correct. Could it have
>> lasted
>> and flourished until now? A definite "maybe". It was certainly hauling
>> nicely in 1954 when converted to bus operation. The area along the
>> route has
>> grown in population. And, as Fred points out, the ex-PRR Media-West
>> Chester
>> line is no longer a competitor.BUT, many of the new arrivals to the
>> area do
>> not have their major activities along the West Chester Pike-they
>> are far
>> more likely to work along the 202 corridor.On the other hand, it
>> serves 2
>> sizeable colleges w/ large numbers of commuter students, and the
>> demographics and job markets are such that reverse commuting of
>> support
>> workers, low skills workers, hopital support staff,etc use the ex-
>> Red Arrow
>> lines from 69th St. in the AM and inbound in the PM. Same applies to
>> hospital workers along the line who seem to be some of transit's most
>> faithful users-look at Bryn Mawr on Route 100 @ 1130 pm and @ 230
>> pm. It
>> would probably-and admittedly there is no hard data for woulda-
>> shoulda-have
>> done at least as well as Media- Sharon Hill and comparably to the
>> Norristown
>> High Speed Line-ex-P&W.So it might well-and we're all speculating-
>> have done
>> respectably, if not spectacularly. And  now every line, w/ high gas
>> prices,
>> has seen some bounce. I agree w/ Fred in part that ridership would
>> almost
>> certainly not be what it was in mid 50's, but that it was converted
>> seemed
>> less predictable than why let's say the Liberty Bell Limited
>> (disclaimer-I
>> LOVE the LVT!!!!) , which was hemorrhaging ridership and whose
>> conversion
>> seemed far more economically predictable.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Schneider Fred" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 8:39 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?
>>
>>
>>> As I recall, West Chester ran every 15 minutes to Newtown Square and
>>> every half hour to West Chester on weekdays but the volume of
>>> business was heavy enough on Sundays to require a car every 15
>>> minutes all the way to West Chester!   Can you imagine ... an eight
>>> car base service on Sundays?
>>>
>>> I question how much of that business would still be there today.
>>>
>>> Remember when PATCO opened the line from Center City to Collinwood,
>>> Haddonfield and Lindenwold, average weekday boardings were around
>>> 39,000.   I think the line peaked in the low 40,000 ... perhaps up
>>> around 41,000 or 42,000 a day.   Because of the gradual decline in
>>> jobs in downtown Philadelphia since 1969, last year PATCO's average
>>> weekday ridership was around 33,000.
>>>
>>> I can remember huge crowds that used to swarm like locusts from the
>>> PST bus docks and streetcar platforms and the P&W to the Market
>>> Street elevated line back in the 1950s.   I can remember when it was
>>> routine to run the PST St Louies and the P&W Bullets in two car
>>> trains to handle rush hour crowds.     I know the intervals between
>>> cars has spread out drastically.   I think I can also remember 15
>>> minute late evening service on the P&W ... I remember coming out of
>>> 69th St about 9:15 or 9:30 on a Saturday night in 1958 in swinging
>>> load.    I'm putting that all in past tense.   The P&W (SEPTA R100)
>>> is 20 minutes day and 30 minutes evening on Saturdays today.
>>>
>>> Perhaps John Swindler can tell me what has happened to Market -
>>> Frankford patronage over 50 years?????
>>>
>>> The only think that could potentially keep PST West Chester cars
>>> hauling, if they were still there today, is the fact that SEPTA has
>>> also discontinued the Media - West Chester train service on the
>>> former Pennsylvania Railroad west of Elwyn.   Yes guys ... back in
>>> the 1950s there was 15 minute service on the trolley and hourly on
>>> the PRR to West Chester and both were under wire.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Richard Allman wrote:
>>>
>>>> sorry for the delay, John-day job. Route 60 would now be a whole
>>>> lot lighter
>>>> than in the 60's and 70's due to depopulation and decline of the
>>>> 'hood.
>>>> Ditto 56 west of Broad, though East of there and through the Tacony
>>>> section,
>>>> it was and could be a brisk feeder to the El @ Erie Torresdale. I
>>>> guess the
>>>> stretch from Broad to the Hunting Park loop was short enough to
>>>> preempt
>>>> looping further east.The 53 corridor has also seen some decline both
>>>> numerically and demographically, w/ fewer people needing to get to
>>>> the Eris
>>>> stop of the Broad St. Subway for trip to Center City. Routes 47 and
>>>> 50? Part
>>>> of the routes traversed the section of the city aka "The Badlands"
>>>> where
>>>> drug and gang activity would scare the bejeepers out of anyone. The
>>>> Fifth
>>>> St. and Rising Sun corridors are semi-vibrant ethic areas-Korean,
>>>> Columbian,
>>>> Brazilian, but the trek to Center City would be slow, arduous, and
>>>> frightening, w/ no convenient interchange to Regional Rail or rapid
>>>> transit
>>>> divisions. The stretches of those lines from South Philly to Center
>>>> City?
>>>> Not sure but intuitively, seem like they should have been busy. Both
>>>> traversed what were and are highly populated areas, where many
>>>> residents had
>>>> employment connections to Center City, but that is merely a hunch.
>>>> Before
>>>> the bus conversion, those routes were off and on, trolley to bus
>>>> for years.
>>>> Interestingly, 23 and 47 were all-electric routes initially,
>>>> after the
>>>> Nearside era. When they underwent temporary conversions, they later
>>>> came
>>>> back as mixed all-electric and air-electric operations after PTC
>>>> figured out
>>>> it could run all-electrics in the trolley subway. 50 was an all-
>>>> electric
>>>> route, but had the cars without the little apertures, aka the
>>>> Kansas City
>>>> cars, which also served part of 56. The line in the S.E. corner of
>>>> the state
>>>> that defensibly could and should have stayed a rail line is the
>>>> West Chester
>>>> Pike line-rising ridership @ time of conversion in June 1954, the
>>>> current
>>>> bus trip in peak hours is substantially longer than the trolley
>>>> trip in
>>>> 1954. At the time however, the moving of the line to the  median of
>>>> the
>>>> widened Pike which is wide enough to have accommodated the 2 track
>>>> line
>>>> seemed imprudent, especially since the reconfigured Pike had many
>>>> more
>>>> traffic lights that the pre-existent 2 lane rural highway.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:30 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 3, 2008, at 3:16 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The route 23 cars were seldom nearly empty, even into the SEPTA
>>>>>> era.   It is/was one of the heaviest routes in Philadelphia.
>>>>>> So is/
>>>>>> was 60 and 56.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Route 53 Wayne Ave. was another matter.  And 47 and 50 were not
>>>>>> that busy either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd appreciate Rich's comments as I'm just trying to remember
>>>>>> ridership statistics from the 1980s.  Today would probably be a
>>>>>> different observation.  That is the reason for use of the past
>>>>>> tense above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> To: pittsburgh-
>>>>>>> railways at dementia.org> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street
>>>>>>> car line?> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 10:31:43 -0700> > I do know
>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>> fact that many, many people living along St. Louis' > Hodiamont
>>>>>>> line raised a big fuss when that line was slated for bustitution,
>>>>>>>> but they did not have the political clout the people in
>>>>>>> Philadelphia had > twenty years later to keep the nearly empty
>>>>>>> Route 23 cars shuttling past > their homes for ambience.....heck,
>>>>>>> even that line has been "suspended" since > the early 1990s.> > I
>>>>>>> do know some people in the South Hills put up a good fight to
>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>> the > Library, Drake and Mount Lebanon lines.> > Remember,
>>>>>>> though,
>>>>>>> some of the loudest streetcar opponents were motorists who >
>>>>>>> didn't live in a particular car line's corridor, but drove
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>> it, > hating to drive on the tracks and getting "trapped" behind
>>>>>>> streetcars > picking up passengers.> > I know a person who rode
>>>>>>> and wanted the 42/38 saved, but !
>>>>>>  was happy when the > 53 was abandoned because he hating
>>>>>> driving in
>>>>>> traffic with streetcars.> > K.> ----- Original Message ----- >
>>>>>> From: "Jerry MATT Matsick" <mtoytrain at bellsouth.net>> To:
>>>>>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008
>>>>>> 10:16 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?> > >
>>>>>>> My question when PRCo/PAT decided to cut a street car line, did
>>>>>> not the > > people fuss about it?> > I was in the Service during
>>>>>> the 60s, if I had been in town I would have > > tried to stop it,
>>>>>> but was> > it just the sign of the times? I remember when the drop
>>>>>> the Donora car? I > > was just 11 but I was> > upset. Now cities
>>>>>> are looking and the establishment of new RAIL LINES , > > I guess
>>>>>> it is what> > comes around goes around! Groups thought?> > Jerry
>>>>>> Matsick> > Former Donora/Pittsburgher (North Hills)> >> > --> >
>>>>>> Jerry "Matt" Matsick> > You don't stop laughing because> > you
>>>>>> grow
>>>>>> old. You grow old> > because you stop laughing from the> > River
>>>>>> City by th!
>>>>>>  e sea!> > Jacksonville, Florida!> >> > -------------- Original
>>>>>> message
>>>>>>  from "Ken & Tracie" > > <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:
>>>>>> -------------- > >> >> >> OFF TOPIC WARNING!> >>> >>> >> -----
>>>>>> Original Message ----- > >> From: "Fred Schneider"> >> To:> >>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 5:28 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re:
>>>>>> Greyhound crime> >>> >>> >> >I love the choice of advertisements
>>>>>> that go with it, Philip. Teen> >> > teeth whiteners and high blood
>>>>>> pressure medicines! They're a hoot.> >>> >> Back in 1981 or '82,
>>>>>> some jerk in Waukesha, Wisconsin kidnapped his> >> estranged wife
>>>>>> (she lived across the street from me), murdered her,> >> hacksawed
>>>>>> her head from her body, dumped the body in a cornfield and > >>
>>>>>> burnt> >> the head in his parents' wood burning stove.> >>> >>
>>>>>> Anyway, I was listening to a news report about the case some
>>>>>> months
>>>>>>>>> later.> >> Immediately after the newscaster mentioned that the
>>>>>> suspect had sawed off> >> his wife's head, they went to a
>>>>>> commercial break. The commercial was for > >> a> >> home
>>>>>> improvement store and began with the!
>>>>>>   sound of somebody sawing. Then > >> the> >> music started with
>>>>>> people cheerfully singing, "When you're working at > >> home,> >>
>>>>>> and you need a helping hand.............."> >>> >> K.> >>> >>>
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows
>>>>>> Live.
>>>>>> http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-
>>>>>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLYIA_whichathlete_us
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>