[PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?

Tue Aug 12 12:28:46 EDT 2008

We tend to hasten to blame NCL for using all those 1,000 51-passenger  
GM diesels to replace the 80-hundreds, the last Nearsides, the last  
5200s and the last Suburban PC and Suburban K class cars.   But let  
us not forget that NCL also used them to replace one White bus, some  
Fords, a flock of Mack Victories, a bunch of ACF-Brill C44s and a  
whole lot of Mack C41s.   I suspect that a third of the new buses  
went to replace older buses but railfans are prone to ignore that.    
PTC also acquired 90 used PCCs from Kansas City and St. Louis (St.  
Louis was another NCL property but KC was not).   For those who want  
to blame NCL for getting rid of trolleys, you need to look at the  
1950 list of NCL properties to discover that most of the companies  
they owned were bought after someone else converted them to bus.    
They were often modernizing bus companies.

So what happened?  Without having Cox's roster in front of me, I can  
only speculate that PTC got rid of about 800 streetcars or about  
40,000 seats.  They probably also disposed of about 15,000 bus  
seats.   Maybe 20,000 bus seats.   And then replaced them with 51,000  
new bus seats.   That probably represents a net loss of a few  
thousand seats in the three year conversion period which doesn't  
surprise me considering how fast we were buying automobiles.

Fred would like to be able to come back in 25 years and see what our  
cities will look like.   Intuitively he feels that we will have  
reversed the trend to suburban living because we will not be able to  
afford (1) to heat large homes, (2) to cool large homes, (3) to mow  
3/4s of a acre of grass, (4) to drive all over the landscape to shop  
or to work or to go to school.   Fred is not necessarily predicting  
that tomorrow's cities will be yesterday's cities.   They may evolve  
out of today's suburbs or out of yesterday's cities or out of a farm  
somewhere.   But this guy Schneider thinks we will again learn to  
accept living within 25 feet of our neighbors.  He hopes his European  
friends don't laugh to hard as we get our wings clipped.

Herr Schneider

On Aug 12, 2008, at 11:05 AM, John Swindler wrote:

>
> Hi Rich
>
> Thank you for the overview of Philly's industrial/commercial  
> heritage.  (:>)
>
> But seriously, thank you for confirming a suspicion.  The  
> neighborhoods have changed.  Fifty years ago NCL updated their  
> rolling stock by replacing 30 year old streetcars with - not PCCs,  
> but GM buses.  Got rid of double end routes, Market St. routes,  
> south Philly, and several north/ northeast Philly routes.  Left the  
> system with 5-15 year old PCC cars and a lot of new buses to serve  
> what was still thriving commercial areas.  About 7 north Philly  
> routes retained rail - probably for a variety of reasons.  I'd  
> suspect NCL wanting to get their full investment out of the PCC  
> fleet plus still viable neighborhoods had a lot to do with the  
> survival of these routes.  But that is just a guess from a  
> Pittsburgher.
>
> 25 years later or 1980s, those commercial areas were in decline.   
> Maybe decay would be better.  Makes it hard to justify investing in  
> high quality transit service for much of the area.  And today?  Not  
> much has changed other then continued decline.  In this regard,  
> would tend to side with Fred, despite critical comments from railfans.
>
> I've heard it said that route 23 and even more so, the C bus, are  
> to provide an option for people afraid to enter the Broad St. subway.
>
> As for 15, perhaps proximity to Temple and the Zoo helped make the  
> restoration happen.  It might be far enough south of the 'badlands'.
>
> Cheers
> John
>
>> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 11:37:45 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net>  
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?> To:  
>> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > sorry for the delay, John-day  
>> job. Route 60 would now be a whole lot lighter > than in the 60's  
>> and 70's due to depopulation and decline of the 'hood. > Ditto 56  
>> west of Broad, though East of there and through the Tacony  
>> section, > it was and could be a brisk feeder to the El @ Erie  
>> Torresdale. I guess the > stretch from Broad to the Hunting Park  
>> loop was short enough to preempt > looping further east.The 53  
>> corridor has also seen some decline both > numerically and  
>> demographically, w/ fewer people needing to get to the Eris > stop  
>> of the Broad St. Subway for trip to Center City. Routes 47 and 50?  
>> Part > of the routes traversed the section of the city aka "The  
>> Badlands" where > drug and gang activity would scare the bejeepers  
>> out of anyone. The Fifth > St. and Rising Sun corridors are semi- 
>> vibrant ethic areas-Korean, !
>  Columbian, > Brazilian, but the trek to Center City would be slow,  
> arduous, and > frightening, w/ no convenient interchange to  
> Regional Rail or rapid transit > divisions. The stretches of those  
> lines from South Philly to Center City? > Not sure but intuitively,  
> seem like they should have been busy. Both > traversed what were  
> and are highly populated areas, where many residents had >  
> employment connections to Center City, but that is merely a hunch.  
> Before > the bus conversion, those routes were off and on, trolley  
> to bus for years. > Interestingly, 23 and 47 were all-electric  
> routes initially, after the > Nearside era. When they underwent  
> temporary conversions, they later came > back as mixed all-electric  
> and air-electric operations after PTC figured out > it could run  
> all-electrics in the trolley subway. 50 was an all-electric >  
> route, but had the cars without the little apertures, aka the  
> Kansas City > cars, which also served part of 56. The line in the  
> S.E. corner of the!
>   state > that defensibly could and should have stayed a rail line  
> is t
> he West Chester > Pike line-rising ridership @ time of conversion  
> in June 1954, the current > bus trip in peak hours is substantially  
> longer than the trolley trip in > 1954. At the time however, the  
> moving of the line to the median of the > widened Pike which is  
> wide enough to have accommodated the 2 track line > seemed  
> imprudent, especially since the reconfigured Pike had many more >  
> traffic lights that the pre-existent 2 lane rural highway.> -----  
> Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Schneider"  
> <fwschneider at comcast.net>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>>  
> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:30 PM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo] 
> End of a Street car line?> > > > Agreed.> >> > On Aug 3, 2008, at  
> 3:16 PM, John Swindler wrote:> >> >>> >> Hi Ken> >>> >> The route  
> 23 cars were seldom nearly empty, even into the SEPTA> >> era. It  
> is/was one of the heaviest routes in Philadelphia. So is/> >> was  
> 60 and 56.> >>> >> Route 53 Wayne Ave. was another matter. And 47  
> and 50 were not> >> that !
>  busy either.> >>> >> I'd appreciate Rich's comments as I'm just  
> trying to remember> >> ridership statistics from the 1980s. Today  
> would probably be a> >> different observation. That is the reason  
> for use of the past> >> tense above.> >>> >> John> >>> >>> >>>  
> From: ktjosephson at embarqmail.com> To: pittsburgh-> >>>  
> railways at dementia.org> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street>  
> >>> car line?> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 10:31:43 -0700> > I do know  
> for a> >>> fact that many, many people living along St. Louis' >  
> Hodiamont> >>> line raised a big fuss when that line was slated for  
> bustitution,> >>> > but they did not have the political clout the  
> people in> >>> Philadelphia had > twenty years later to keep the  
> nearly empty> >>> Route 23 cars shuttling past > their homes for  
> ambience.....heck,> >>> even that line has been "suspended" since >  
> the early 1990s.> > I> >>> do know some people in the South Hills  
> put up a good fight to save> >>> the > Library, Drake and Mount  
> Lebanon lines.> !
>> Remember, though,> >>> some of the loudest streetcar opponents were
> motorists who >> >>> didn't live in a particular car line's  
> corridor, but drove through> >>> it, > hating to drive on the  
> tracks and getting "trapped" behind> >>> streetcars > picking up  
> passengers.> > I know a person who rode> >>> and wanted the 42/38  
> saved, but !> >> was happy when the > 53 was abandoned because he  
> hating driving in> >> traffic with streetcars.> > K.> -----  
> Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Jerry MATT Matsick"  
> <mtoytrain at bellsouth.net>> To:> >> <pittsburgh- 
> railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008> >> 10:16 AM>  
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: [PRCo]End of a Street car line?> > >> >> > My  
> question when PRCo/PAT decided to cut a street car line, did> >>  
> not the > > people fuss about it?> > I was in the Service during>  
> >> the 60s, if I had been in town I would have > > tried to stop  
> it,> >> but was> > it just the sign of the times? I remember when  
> the drop> >> the Donora car? I > > was just 11 but I was> > upset.  
> Now cities> >> are looking and the establish!
>  ment of new RAIL LINES , > > I guess> >> it is what> > comes  
> around goes around! Groups thought?> > Jerry> >> Matsick> > Former  
> Donora/Pittsburgher (North Hills)> >> > --> >> >> Jerry "Matt"  
> Matsick> > You don't stop laughing because> > you grow> >> old. You  
> grow old> > because you stop laughing from the> > River> >> City by  
> th!> >> e sea!> > Jacksonville, Florida!> >> > --------------  
> Original> >> message> >> from "Ken & Tracie" > >  
> <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>:> >> -------------- > >> >> >> OFF  
> TOPIC WARNING!> >>> >>> >> -----> >> Original Message ----- > >>  
> From: "Fred Schneider"> >> To:> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, August 02,  
> 2008 5:28 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re:> >> Greyhound crime> >>> >>>  
> >> >I love the choice of advertisements> >> that go with it,  
> Philip. Teen> >> > teeth whiteners and high blood> >> pressure  
> medicines! They're a hoot.> >>> >> Back in 1981 or '82,> >> some  
> jerk in Waukesha, Wisconsin kidnapped his> >> estranged wife> >>  
> (she lived across the street from m!
>  e), murdered her,> >> hacksawed> >> her head from her body, dumped  
> the
>  body in a cornfield and > >>> >> burnt> >> the head in his  
> parents' wood burning stove.> >>> >>> >> Anyway, I was listening to  
> a news report about the case some months> >> > >> later.> >>  
> Immediately after the newscaster mentioned that the> >> suspect had  
> sawed off> >> his wife's head, they went to a> >> commercial break.  
> The commercial was for > >> a> >> home> >> improvement store and  
> began with the!> >> sound of somebody sawing. Then > >> the> >>  
> music started with> >> people cheerfully singing, "When you're  
> working at > >> home,> >>> >> and you need a helping  
> hand.............."> >>> >> K.> >>> >>> > > >> >>  
> _________________________________________________________________>  
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