[PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing, cities, etc.

[Jerry MATT Matsick]

Fred on the subject of Churches and locations, I invite you and all of the group to Jacksonville, get on
board the Skyway Express and get off at the First Baptist Church stop, here you will be in the middle
of 12 city blocks filled with church buildings, a church school, a worship center sanctuary seating 10,000, a church membership of 28,000 and growing, we also have the original Sanctuary (seating 1200) my wife and I were married back in 1969, a middle sanctuary seating 3,400,  people will travel to a great restaurant
to get a good meal, likewise, people will travel to a church where they will receive a good spiritual
meal.   And that is the secret to one of America's fastest growing churches.  Condos on the rise downtown
have friend living on the 38th floor of one of the many new Condos being built downtown, moved into
town from a suburban plat 18 miles out.   I believe all of America will experience growth in the core
city if they prepare for it.
Jerrry Matsick
Jacksonville
--
From: Jerry "Matt" Matsick 

AGING: Eventually you will reach a point when you 
stop lying about your age and start Bragging 
about it.

-------------- Original message from Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>: -------------- 


> OK, Ken, let me take that one on for size and play devils advocate. 
> Americans have gradually moved away from their churches in the 20th 
> century. "Mainstream" denominations have become smaller while some 
> of the more radical churches of the open door (for want of a better 
> word) or independents have become huge. I have not followed this 
> but I suspect in this era of automobiles, churches may not be as 
> concerned with locating in the geographic center of their membership 
> as they are with finding a huge plot of land for a sanctuary, Sunday 
> school building, office building, and parking lot in a place where 
> they can also beat the zoning board to death. 
> 
> Right now your own church (Latter Day Saints) wants to build a new 
> church near Landisville, Lancaster County. East Hempfield zoning 
> people are having a field day and so are the neighbors. How dare 
> you build here. It will cause unpredented congestion. Have you no 
> feelings for us people who live here. And of course the zoning board 
> said people leaving the church will not be able to turn left onto the 
> Harrisburg Pike, they will be required to go through the development 
> to the next traffic light further infuriating the neighbors who don't 
> want them on their asphalt. (My God is better than your God. 
> People worshiping your God shouldn't use our streets. Cynical Fred 
> is at it again. I think the hope is that they will give up and build 
> somewhere else and perhaps they will. Some do. Even Wal*Mart 
> sometimes gives up those battles. 
> 
> I think churches often, like carbarns, reflected where there was a 
> large vacant lot available, i.e. at the edge of town that was still a 
> farm field. They may very well be markers or flags for the edge of 
> development at the time they were built. That concept is even more 
> valid today because they need huge parking lots, often for 200 or 300 
> cars. (The parking lots have to cause storm water runoff issues 
> too.) But it was probably also true in 1800 and 1900. If I look 
> at Williamsburg, Virginia, Bruton Parish Church was not near the 
> capitol or the middle of town ... it was out in the low rent 
> district. This was probably the case because they were built using 
> members money. They didn't have a lot of money for expensive land 
> unless they had a major donor. Shadyside Presbyterian on Amberson 
> in Pittsburgh could be an exception because there was a lot of money 
> there. There will always be exceptions ... National Cathedral in 
> Washington, St. Patricks in New York but for the most part I think 
> churches were probably on the fringes and on cheaper turf. 
> 
> In this county all or probably all of the chuches built in the last 
> half century have been on farmland in the suburbs. The most 
> controversial was when Calvary Independent decided they no longer 
> wanted to hold three separate services and wanted a sanctuary to hold 
> up to 1,000 members at once. Can you imagine the traffic jams? 
> Even the Historic Preservation Trust of Lancaster County was fighting 
> them because the farm they bought included a 1760s farm house. (They 
> kept the farm house as a place to house visiting speakers.) When 
> the first announced plans, the opposition was so loud you would have 
> thought Wal*Mart wanted to build a Super Store in the middle of a 
> golf course at a gated community with multi-million dollar homes. 
> 
> But the oldest churches probably give an inkling of the possible age 
> of the city. Certainly the fact that Lancaster has three churches 
> older than the signing of the Declaration of Independence says we've 
> been around for a while. But if you looked at East Liberty 
> Presbyterian at Penn and Highland, you could get the false impression 
> that East Liberty is a late 1920s early 1930s locality if you didn't 
> know that Mellon paid to tear down the older church and build his 
> "Fire Escape" or "Stairway to Heaven" in its place. 
> 
> Caution is dictated. 
> 
> On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Ken and Tracie wrote: 
> 
> > Churches may be a better indicator than school buildings as to the 
> > age of a 
> > neighborhood. 
> > 
> > K. 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Schneider Fred" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:03 AM 
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing, cities, etc. 
> > 
> > 
> >> Certainly. Any buildings are clues. 
> >> 
> >> Downtown buildings are probably better clues because they tell when 
> >> the city was built. Western cities (Phoenix, San Jose, Los Angeles 
> >> are much newer than eastern. Seattle and San Francisco are somewhat 
> >> older than Phoenix and San Jose and Los Angeles and you can see it in 
> >> the principal downtown buildings.) 
> >> 
> >> But the best clues are still private homes along the older streets. 
> >> For every school or store or factory, there are probably 50 houses 
> >> that will confirm the age of an area. 
> >> 
> >> But a school is not reflective of neighborhoods in general because 
> >> they do tear them down and replace them with newer buildings, because 
> >> there are few of them, and because they reflect legislation more than 
> >> demand. High schools were common in cities while rural kids did not 
> >> often go to high school. My mother, who went to Perry High 
> >> (Perrysville Avenue and East Street) had rural friends who came in on 
> >> the Harmony interurban because there were no high schools out near 
> >> Warrendale. My late mother-in-law grew up in southern Lancaster 
> >> County in a town called Kirkwood; she moved in with relatives in 
> >> Lancaster City to go to high school. My high school in Manheim 
> >> Township was not built until 1930 until an older 1st through 8th 
> >> grade building was destroyed by fire in 1928 or 1929 and that became 
> >> the reason to finally extend public education beyond the 8th grade 
> >> in that rural township of 6,300 people. (By the way it was up to 
> >> about 8,000 when I graduated in 1958 and today the township is larger 
> >> than at least eight cities in the state ... about 37,000 ... more 
> >> populous than Easton, New Castle, Sharon, Johnstown, Chester, Lebanon 
> >> and a couple of others whose names I've forgotten.) 
> >> 
> >> If we were to only look at schools in my township, one would get the 
> >> false impression that no one lived here before the 1930s. Why, 
> >> because in the 1930s we went from small elementary schools that 
> >> everyone came to on foot to four elementary schools and school 
> >> buses. It was a massive building program that also included the high 
> >> school. Seven or eight or more one to four room schools were 
> >> recycled as housing. Some you can easily identify today. Some 
> >> have been torn down. However, we had our first streetcar service 
> >> (the Lititz - Lancaster interurban) in 1895, the second service (the 
> >> Ephrata -Lancaster interurban and New Holland - Lancaster interurban) 
> >> in 1900, the third (the interurban to Manheim) in 1901 and a Rossmere 
> >> city car sometime after 1907. We even used school streetcars until 
> >> 1931 when the township bought a fleet of school buses. But existing 
> >> school buildings give very few clues. 
> >> 
> >> George, you understand that Fred is trying to nudge railfans into 
> >> looking beyond the just the trolley car and into making it what it 
> >> really was, a part of an entire community. It was only a 
> >> part of history ... something we used to shop every day because we 
> >> had ice boxes instead of refrigerators and freezers; something we 
> >> used to go downtown to the cinema because we didn't have this box 
> >> that flashed inane pictures of people trying to vote each other off 
> >> an island; something you used on All-Saints day to go to Homewood 
> >> Cemtery to put flowers on Uncle Harry's grave; something you used to 
> >> go to Oakland to view the Pirates in a winning streak; something you 
> >> used to ride to the mill in Homestead or the Strip District or East 
> >> Pittsburgh; something we used to go to Gimbels or Rosenbaums or 
> >> Kaufmans or Hornes or Boggs & Buhl for the kids back to school 
> >> clothes; and something you rode to the school picnic at Kennywood. 
> >> 
> >> And to understand it well, you need to know more than a smattering 
> >> about history. 
> >> 
> >> Look at the streetcars in the south. The Birney cars almost always 
> >> had doors at both ends. All the cars had doors at both ends except 
> >> perhaps Birmingham which ran a large fleet of center door cars. 
> >> Why? Jim Crow laws. It was considered socially improper for a 
> >> black person to walk twice past a white person. So after entering 
> >> the car and paying the fare, the white man or lady had to get off the 
> >> rear of the car. History is something you need to understand to 
> >> comprehend the hobby. The more of it you learn, the more of the 
> >> hobby you understand. 
> >> 
> >> But after a while all that history becomes a lot more fun. 
> >> 
> >> On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Gray, George wrote: 
> >> 
> >>> One can also look at the age of schools. Brookline School opened in 
> >>> 1908. (I suppose it had a centennial this year.) It had a major 
> >>> expansion about 10-15 years later. 
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message----- 
> >>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org 
> >>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of 
> >>> Schneider Fred 
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:07 PM 
> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] P-r-w, housing, cities, etc. 
> >>> 
> >>> Uh huh. That's because the city was unsettled then. 
> >>> 
> >>> In 1700 the frontier was Philadelphia, Williamsburg, Boston, 
> >>> Charleston, Baltimore. 
> >>> 
> >>> In 1750 the frontier was Lancaster or Charlottesville. 
> >>> 
> >>> In 1800 Pittsburgh was indian territory. 
> >>> 
> >>> In the 1880s people were beginning to move up into what is now Perry 
> >>> Hilltop. My grandmothers neighborhood by Riverview Park off of 
> >>> Perrysville Avenue was a Watson land development from the teens of 
> >>> 1920s. 
> >>> 
> >>> West View Park was built in 1906. The land around it was developed 
> >>> in that period. Nothing was there. 
> >>> 
> >>> The older homes in Brookline and Mount Lebanon and Dormont are 
> >>> largely teens, twenties, a few thirties, forties. 
> >>> 
> >>> Penn Hills? After World War II Levittown in Bucks County was the 
> >>> fastest growing part of Pennsylvania and Penn Hills (Penn Township, 
> >>> Allegheny County) was second. My parents bought two adjoining 1/4 
> >>> acre lots in Crescent Hills in 1937 and built a house on one of 
> >>> them. Meadow Gold Dairy gave customers an aerial photograph of the 
> >>> neighborhood ... about one lot in six or seven was filled in by 
> >>> 1940. The rest didn't fill in until the 1960s. It's solid 
> >>> today. But in the 1940s only the area around Black Ridge above 
> >>> Wilkinsburg was really filled in. 
> >>> 
> >>> Those perfectly symmetrical square brick houses that you see all 
> >>> over 
> >>> Allegheny County ... walk in the front door and the living room is 
> >>> either to the right or left, the dining room is on the other side 
> >>> with the kitchen behind it. The stair case goes up from the front 
> >>> door. with three bedrooms and bath upstairs with the bath over the 
> >>> kitchen. The basement had a single car garage under the 
> >>> kitchen. They are purely late 1940s. Memorize the design and you 
> >>> can see what filled in after the war. Go up the hill from Linden 
> >>> Grove on the interurban and you will find that area filled with 
> >>> them. That's where John Swindler's parents moved after leaving 
> >>> Edgewood. A lot of homes in Penn Hills are like that ... the post 
> >>> war ones. 
> >>> 
> >>> If you local hysterical society has a person qualified to teach the 
> >>> basics of architectural history of housing, I would suggest that it 
> >>> is something any railfan interested in something more than just the 
> >>> trolley cars should attend. Once you know the housing styles and 
> >>> when they were built, then you can tell what houses were there when 
> >>> the streetcar lines were there. You tell which homes were there 
> >>> before the trolleys, which were build because of the convenience of 
> >>> the trolleys, which post dated the trolleys. You will come to 
> >>> recognize trolley suburbs, bus suburbs. You can take such a course 
> >>> in European universities but unfortunately it is very uncommon in 
> >>> the 
> >>> U. S. A. However, I did find one offered by the Lancaster County 
> >>> Historical Society and you may equally lucky in your area. 
> >>> 
> >>> You can also, with greater effort, do some of it on your own just by 
> >>> working with maps. If this street appears first on a 1922 map then 
> >>> none of the houses could be earlier than that. If you have enough 
> >>> maps and enough street references and you look long and hard enough, 
> >>> you will become the expert. Sears Roebuck used to sell houses in 
> >>> their catalogs. Bear in mind that they were never ahead of the 
> >>> curve, always a little behind it. So if you saw something in a 
> >>> 1915 
> >>> catalog, it was probably at the peak of its popularity a few years 
> >>> earlier. 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Dec 10, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Barry, Matthew R wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>>> A lot more private right of way that I had previously thought. 
> >>>> Note where the line comes off of Woodlawn Ave, crosses Forbes and 
> >>>> goes into what is most probably private right of way. It moves on 
> >>>> in to areas that I don't think any other carline really ever 
> >>>> replaced. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message----- 
> >>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org 
> >>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of 
> >>>> Derrick J Brashear 
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:07 PM 
> >>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] old maps of Pittsburgh and elsewhere reveal... 
> >>>> 
> >>>> http://lnk.nu/images.library.pitt.edu/r8v 
> >>>> 
> >>>> note the location of the trolley line through Schenley Park 
> >>>> (also the 
> >>>> inclines at the foot of S 21st St and the J&L Coal incline by S 
> >>>> 30th St. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> 
>