[PRCo] Re: First PAYE Cars

Tue Jul 1 09:44:13 EDT 2008

There is also a Dengler photo in which a poster shows, indicating that Route
82 was being converted to Pay Enter at all times.  I don't remember the
date, but it was late '30s/early '40s, and I did make a notation on the
envelope containing the negative.

I sense that this decision was made because a number of passengers were
found to be without funds as they reached their destinations, and I suspect
that this happened with Route 85 as well.  On 22, it was just a matter of
simplicity, it would seem. 

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Schneider
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:42 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: First PAYE Cars

Correct on both counts, John.  The 3400s, 3500s, 4000s and 4100s were  
PAYE at the rear.   The Philly, Buffalo, Chicago and Atlantic City  
Nearside cars were PAYE at the front with the conductor stationed
immediately behind the motorman.  But all of these were pass as you pass
schemes as opposed to the initial method of collection copied from the
railroads where the conductor approached the seated passenger and the
passenger prayed he or she would be missed.

I didn't mean to start a discussion on 22/85.  I only implied that
collection was pay as you enter on 85 during the period when they were
combined.

On Jun 30, 2008, at 2:08 PM, John Swindler wrote:

>
>
>> fwschneider mentioned:
>>> PAYE refers to pay as you pass the conductor when you got on the car 
>>> > as opposed to the previous system wherein you first sat down, hid 
>>> > behind your newspaper, and prayed that the condutor didn't 
>>> recognized > that you had not paid.
>
> PAYE means Pay As You Enter, Not Pay as you pass the conductor.   
> And this depends on where the conductor is located.  A "Peter Witt"  
> type fare collection, where the conductor is near the center door, 
> would be Pay as you pass the conductor.  The front half of the car is 
> where the unpaid passengers are "stored" until the conductor collects 
> their fare, either as they exit at the center door or move to a seat 
> in rear of car.
>
> At this early PRC date, PAYE probably refers to paying the conductor 
> on the rear platform as passenger enters the car.
>
>> In the earlier scheme of things, the > conductor came around the car 
>> collecting from passengers after they > were seated. The idea behind 
>> PAYE was to collect all those fares > that were missed because people 
>> were telling the conductor, "Don't > you remember, you already got my 
>> fare?"> > The route cards do not record when PRC went to pay leave 
>> outbound and > pay leave inbound. They only record when they went the 
>> first route > went to PAYE, when each route went from two-man to 
>> one-man (1926-1937
>
>
> It was pay enter inbound, and pay leave outbound.  And I think there 
> was a time when 22 and 85 were through-routed, which might be the 
> occasion for mentioning fare payment in the route cards.  They would 
> not have been the norm within the CBD.
>
> The reason was to reduce congestion within the central business 
> district.
>
>> but very few were converted after 1933), and they did record that
>> 22 > CROSSTOWN or 85 BEDFORD-CROSSTOWN was converted to pay enter in 
>> both > directions. The reason behind that was that under the pay 
>> enter in/ > pay leave out scheme there were a lot of people who got 
>> on cars and > rode across downtown free. Since 22 or 22/85 was only a 
>> downtown > route, it was converted to pay enter to make sure they got 
>> their money. > But the company did not record when they went to pay 
>> enter inbound / > pay enter outbound on the route cards. Logically it 
>> would have been > sometime around the conversion to one-man. It would 
>> not have not > worked well with cars like the 3400s after conversion 
>> to rear > entrance), the 3500s, the 4000s or the 4100s, all of which 
>> were rear > entrance, front exit cars. The operative word is WELL. No 
>> one left > to ask who rode them in the 1920s.>
>
>
> Don't have to ask someone who rode them in the 1920s.  PRC did not 
> record when went to pay enter inbound/pay enter outbound on route 
> cards because PRC never went to this type fare collection.  PRC 
> eventually went to pay in the suburbs (which should not be quoted as 
> is a made up term)
>
>> On Jun 27, 2008, at 4:30 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:> > > 
>> Mr.Swindler!> >> >> > Is PAYE also Pay As You Exit or is it strictly 
>> Enter? When did PRC > > go to pay exiting outbound?> >>
>> >> > Phil> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> >> From:  
>> John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> >> To: pittsburgh- 
>> railways at dementia.org> >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 5:36:13 AM>
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: First PAYE Cars> >>> >>> >> Then why do we
>> have a list dealing with ancient history that > >> doesn't matter???> 
>> >> (:>)> >>> >> Then again, my wife does make some occasional 
>> critical comments > >> about spending> >> time in the past.> >>> >> 
>> From another post, route 77 was originally a Wilkinsburg route via > 
>> >> Fifth (?)> >> Also, do you have a route
>> 79 schedule from the 1960s? I think PRC > >> schedule> >> department 
>> may have used that number for Stadium-Forbes Field > >> service.> >>> 
>> >> And I like that comment from the Sunday Parade.
>> Thanks. It's a > >> keeper.> >>> >> John> >!
>>>>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: First PAYE
>>>>>> > >>> Cars> Date: Thu,> >> 26 Jun 2008 16:42:00 -0400> To:  
>>>>>> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > >> > Or something> >> like 
>>>>>> that. It's ancient history. Does not matter. > Can't catch >
>>>>>> >> the car today.>> >>> Did you see the Sunday Parade
>>>>>> magazine? "Going to the future > > >>> without knowing> >> 
>>>>>> history is like trying to plant cut flowers."> > On Jun 26, 2008, 
>>>>>> > >> at 3:58 PM,> >> John Swindler wrote:> > >> >> > 79 Forbes 
>>>>>> Shady Penn> > 91 Penn > >> Shady Forbes> >>> >>> 72 Bloomfield 
>>>>>> via Forbes> > 92 Bloomfield via Penn> >> >> From:>
>>>>>> >> j_swindler at hotmail.com> To: pittsburgh- > >> > >>
>>>>>> railways at dementia.org> Subject:> >> [PRCo] Re: First PAYE
>>>>>> Cars> Date: > >> Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:12:42 > >> -0400> > >> >>
>>>>>> Wasn't 99, but having a > >> senior moment. Will check.> >
>>>>>> John> > > >> From: > >>> >> fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject:  
>>>>>> [PRCo] Re: First PAYE Cars> > >> > >> Date: Thu, 26> >> Jun
>>>>>> 2008 14:54:42 -0400> To: !
>  pittsburgh- > >> > >> railways at dementia.org> > Suspect> >> it was 
> both
>
>  79 and 99. But all > >> the details ar!> >> e missing for > the 
> counter clockwise outside loop. > >> It is not > >> logical that>
> >> one > direction would have PAYE cars and > >> the other would > 
> >> not.> > On Jun 25,> >> 2008, at 8:30 PM, John Swindler > >>
> wrote:> > >> > Was that the > >> clockwise or> >> counterclockwise 
> loop, > >> and if both loops, > > the other route > >> number is>
> >> missing.> >> > > >> Just checking> >> > John> >> To:> >>
> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > >> From: > >> > >> 
> fwschneider at comcast.net>> >> Subject: [PRCo] First PAYE > >> Cars>
> Date: > >> Wed, 25 Jun 2008 > >> 20:26:55> >> -0400> > First > >> 
> Pittsburgh Railways line > >> to have PAYE > >> cars? The Inside>
> >> and > > >> Outside Loop!> > Lines which ran > >> on Shady, Penn,
> > >> Cecil Alley,> >> and Fifth > > > Avenue. In 1914 this was > >>
> route 79.> > They > >> received Pay As> >> You > > Enter cars in 
> October 1908, > >> probably the > brand new > >> 3500s. > >> >> This 
> was the f!>!
>   irst time you walked > >> past the > conductor > >> and > > paid
> a> >> fare instead of the conductor > >> coming to you.>> > > > >
> >> _________________!> >>
> ________________________________________________> > > > The other >
> >> seas> >> on of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i? > > > >
> Talkathon.> >> >> http://www.imtalkathon.com? > > 
> source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving> > >> >> > > > > >> >> 
> _________________________________________________________________>
> > >> > > Need to> >> know now? Get instant answers with Windows
> Live Messenger.> > >> >> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/
> connect_your_way.html? > >> >>
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008>> >> >> 
> _________________________________________________________________>
> > >> > The other> >> season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the
> i? > > Talkathon.> >> >> http://www.imtalkathon.com? 
> source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving> >> > >> >> 
> _________________________________________________________________> !
>>> Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back!>
>
>>> http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/ >
>>> >> crea=introsrchcashback> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html? 
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008
>
>