[PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST

Thu May 8 20:32:08 EDT 2008

Hi Fred

It wasn't until I saw some early pictures of predecessor equipment that I realized that most of the rolling stock inherited by PRC was single truck, two man cars.  The rear door location dictated two man.  Those wooden cars had to go for a lot of reasons.

Going back to this past weekend, Fred, remember the discussion concerning MUNI Metro design that would have required reversing cars on about a 30 second headway or less under Market St.? That might be the key for single end cars.  In small towns, headways are not severe, but in larger towns, reversing at the end of a line is an operational problem in the peak.  

In Pittsburgh, just about everything looped in the downtown district - so just about everything had one loop already.  The decision to go to double truck cars was apparently made soon after creation of Pittsburgh Railways.  And I would venture that the decision to go to single end cars started around 1910 with the 4000 and 4100.  The advantage is that you can get rid of half the control gear,  half the doors, and accommodate more standees, but most importantly, eliminates time wasted reversing a car in a city street.

Maybe that is why Carson St. had cars terminating at 22, 30 and 36 St., the 64 had short turns in Braddock and Edgewood, the Larimar loop was used by cars on Ellsworth, Penn, Centre and Butler St., Highland had cars coming out both Fifth and Ellsworth, and route 80 now makes some sense.  They were ways to avoid congestion at an outer terminal  in peak periods.  So maybe the fleet of single end cars is a combination of economics and operational considerations.   Cheaper to buy, and fast scheduled turnaround might reduce total vehicle requirements.      

Today, economical considerations are irrevelant once FTA approves a project.  And for most part, local people are clueless about the past.  Just ask Herb.  (:>)   Public ownership means the public be damned.  

For a long time I've maintained that a modern light rail car should be double articulated, single end with a low floor center section.  The trade-off is elimination of off-side doors and one set of control equipment in exchange for a trailer truck and some sheet metal.  Cost might be about the same, but capacity would be 50% greater, and might be able to get rid of the mu equipment.  But what do I know????

And yes, that was a conversation Friday night that should have been taped. 

John

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:45:32 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > No Sir, the predominant equipment wasn't single-end. That was only > in the later years.> > And by the way, I don't require a Mister just because I've reached > the age of 68.> > Pittsburgh Railways endured from 1902 until 1964.> > From 1902 until 1909 there wasn't a single-end city car on the > property. I'm being careful with semantics because of the 3600 > series Kuhlman interurbans.> > From 1953 until 1964 they didn't operate any double-end cars.> > When the ratio shifted from more double-end to more cars with > controls in only one end was something that would require more > research than I have time for or resources available for here. There > also needs to be a distinction made between cars on the fleet and > cars in service. You'll note from the roster that some double end > cars were also rebuilt into single end cars. I'm speaking of both > high floor cars, i.e. some 3500s that were rebuilt to match the 4000s > and 4100s as well as some low floor cars that were rebuilt as single- > end cars.> > I'm not sure when the balance shifted to single-end but probably some > time in the middle 1920s. As I recall, the roster shows 3400s and > 3500s still around in the early 1930s. Low floor cars went in > service on Oakmont - Verona in 1921 but in 1922 the route cars shows > a 3200 derailed on the line. It makes sense that all the 3100s and > 3200s and 3300s and 3400s would have been around in 1922 because you > didn't yet have all of the 4800s yet. They were still running > single-truck cars and open cars in the summer to the parks because > they needed them. The last single-truck open cars were not retired > until 1923.> > I've been converting all the important information on the route cards > to computer based records. There is a lot of drivel on them that > isn't worth keeping. We really don't care that a route was diverted > for a few hours because of a flood or a parade or a breakdown. I'm > only entering the permanent changes and the long term changes. Yes, > when they diverted route 53 off the 10th Street Bridge from 1930 > until 1933 to build the new suspension bridge, that I think is long > enough to record. Also in those cards is a whole lot of information > on loops. PRC was building them all through the teens and twenties > and thirties and forties and fifties to accommodate single end high- > floor, low-floor, and PCC cars. It wasn't something that happened > over night.> > For example, route 48 Arlington didn't get a loop until 1947. Route > 78 never did. Route 76 conveniently looped around blocks at both > ends except that the Wood and Tioga (Hamilton Short) loop appears to > have been built about 1915 and the extension to Jane St. loop didn't > take place until 1937. Route 46 Beltzhoover didn't get a loop until > 1940. I'm not sure when 68 started looping in McKeesport ... I'm > not done with one. Route 53 Carrick didn't get the loop at > Brownsville until 1924. Perrysville got single-end cars when > Keating Car House opened in the 1920s. Gives you an idea.> > And now the industry has reverted back to the expense of two control > stands. I am not sure why. My suspicion is that the industry is > dominated by politicians and not by bean counters and it no longer > matters which method costs less.> > Last Saturday night a group of us ... Russ Jackson, John Swindler, > Joe Boscia, myself were sitting on Ed Lybarger's back porch. Herb > Brannon was there too. The discussion was about contemporary > industry practices. Joe worked for New Jersey Transit and is now in > consulting. Russ worked for Louis T. Klauder in rail car design. > After than he did the same thing for SEPTA and was in charge of the > Kawasaki surface cars and the N-5 project (P&W) and then he went back > into corporate consulting ... I don't think he'll ever retire John > heads the senior citizen program for PennDOT. Somehow the > discussion brought up the qualifications of the current SEPTA general > manager: fund raising, political schmoozing, etc., but at no point > was increasing passenger revenue part of the deal. Afterward > someone said we should have recorded it. So now you know why the > cars are now double-end again or you may have an inkling.> > fws3> > > > > On May 8, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:> > > Mr.Schneider!> >> >> > This is easily recognized isn't it -- NO OOOOPS about it is > > there!!. That still leaves the fact that the predominant equipment > > on PRC was single end doesn't it. The high-floor 4000s, 4700s thru > > 5500s, 3750s, 3700s, 3800s, 3600s all single end. Inherited > > equipment was hodge podge and with the introduction of the low- > > floor it became the standard equipment, predominantly single end. > > This made it very easy for the introduction of PCCs. A backup > > controller doesn't change the operating configuration does it.> >> >> > Phil> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> >> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 3:44:37 PM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> >>> >> OOOOPS! Phil, all of the early low-floor production cars were> >> double end. Note the word production.> >> The first four cars were converted trailers. They were initially> >> single-end but I think they evolved with time into double end cars.> >> The only one that last any length of time was 4423 which became an> >> instruction car and then became a play room for Bob Brown and company> >> in the old Pittsburgh Chapter of the National Railway Historical> >> Society. Most of the NRHS members were drafted during the war and> >> the car shell became a lovely candidate for a war time metal scrap> >> drive. After the war most of those guys created the Pittsburgh> >> Electric Railway Club. I think many years later there was a> >> Pittsburgh NRHS Chapter again but not the same guys. And there> >> really isn't any one I can ask. Note that there are three founding> >> members of PERC still around but all the old guys that were in the> >> prewar NRHS group are pushing up daisies.> >>> >> Then came the 4200s and 4300s. the double end motor cars came between> >> 1914 and 1917. There were also a dozen second hand double-end cars> >> from Beaver Valley Traction Company that PRC acquired in the 1920s> >> and numbered 4400-4411; they were built in 1917 as a tag onto the > >> 4350s.> >>> >> The single end cars were all built starting in 1917 and continuing> >> into 1927.> >>> >> The exception to that rule is that 3556 was the prototype for the> >> 3700-3714 interurbans.> >>> >> The 3750s were equivalent to the multiple unit equipped 5000s, 5100s> >> and 5200s except that they were built for interurban service. When> >> new they had toilets. They also had a higher gear ratio between> >> traction motor pinions and the bull gears on the axles allowing for> >> higher speeds but of course slower acceleration. When the company> >> selectively speeded up certain cars of the 4700-5549 group, I think> >> they also did all the 3750s. Ultimately ten of the 4350s were done,> >> probably for the 99 Glassport line and our 4398 is one of the few> >> high speed double end cars.> >>> >> One thing I noticed when the truck was apart a few weeks ago is that> >> it has helical drive gears. Now that wasn't something that the car> >> got when it was new. I suspect the helical gears were installed as> >> part of the rebuilding when the cars were speeded up to make them a> >> little less noisy. That was done in the early 1930s> >>> >> I put a roster on line perhaps five years ago and I'm putting it on> >> again. But you need Microsoft Word to open it.> >>> >> To make life easier for those who do not have Word, i.e. those who> >> have the home MS Works edition or have Word Perfect, I resaved it as> >> a text file. It isn't formatted into pages ... just a bloody run on> >> document, but you will be able to open it and read it.> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --> >> -- Type: application/octet-stream> >> -- Size: 105k (107520 bytes)> >> -- URL : > >> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ > >> PITTSBURGH_RAILWAYS_COMPANY_roster.doc> >>> >>> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --> >> -- Type: text/plain> >> -- Size: 4 bytes> >> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ > >> ecartjj7tty> >>> >>> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --> >> -- Type: text/plain> >> -- Size: 28k (28845 bytes)> >> -- URL : > >> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ > >> PITTSBURGH_RAILWAYS_COMPANY_roster.txt> >>> >>> >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --> >> -- Type: text/plain> >> -- Size: 5k (5822 bytes)> >> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ > >> ecartvXUisn> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________> > Be a better friend, newshound, and> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http:// > > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> >> >> > 
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