[PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST

[John Swindler]

You missed the point about the Embarcadero subway station.
 
 
> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:45:20 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > I'm not sure in P. N. Jones' mind or management's mind in general > when the decision was made to standardize on single end cars. They > certainly were not convinced by the purchase of the 4000s ad 4100s > because the 4200s and 4300s were double end. I don't think there was > any pressure on the property in 1909 or 1911 to make a decision that > early. It was 1917 before they began massive purchases of single > end cars so they were at least fifteen years into the company before > they had made a commitment.> > If I had to offer a comment here, it would be that they did it not > because they wanted to but because the city might have been > pressuring them. Why do I say this? Because politicians do not > like to hear complaints from constituents about large maroon (or > orange) boxes sitting in the middle of streets obstructing traffic. > Between 1920 and 1930 the number of registered motor vehicles in > Pennsylvania advanced 200 percent from 500,000 to 1,500,000. I can > just imagine the screaming in the mayor's office and the city council > chambers. Can't you? There is a great picture of a Perrysville > Avenue car in the early 1920s, when the line used double end cars, > showing a 4200 laying over in the middle of the street in the > business district just beyond Perrysville and East Streets. Two > automobiles are trying to squeeze by the damn trolley. What a > wonderful incentive that was to force the railways to extend the line > over the existing 10 line to Keating Car House. Whether the revenue > justified running an empty car an extra mile is not something the > city cared about, is it?> > So I think what I'm saying here is that if we presume that Pittsburgh > Railways did everything possible "on the cheap." And if you argue > that point, Ed Lybarger will come down on you wearing his track > shoes. Then we need to assume that PRC wasn't about to buy real > estate and tear down houses in order to get the space to build loops > unless someone was twisting their corporate arm with awesome force.> > There were, of course, some routes over which they could run single > end cars without spending any additional money for loops. The 71 > and 73 lines to Bunkerhill or Highland Park car house could loop > through the barn. Remember that those ancient low-floor double deck > 6000s were single-end cars and they worked out of Bunkerhill. The 87 > and 88 lines could run around the block in Wilkinsburg. I would have > to look when the wye was put in at Wilmerding for 87. The 55 and 64 > lines could run around the block in East Pittsburgh. The Bedford > line and the Crosstown line, which was through routed with it for a > while, also didn't need loops. Clearview Loop in Mount Lebanon was > very early, probably before they even had single-end cars. West View > and Bellevue were mated from the beginning and did not need loops. > I think the lower Charles St. line could run around the block from > the day it opened. While you might think you could have always run > Route 68 around the block in McKeesport, such an arrangement did not > occur until December 1922, when it became necessary to make an > agreement with West Penn Railways to use their tracks to get a > loop. One by one, loops were built for the other lines.> > San Francisco Municipal Railway, and you brought that company into > the discussion, was a different animal. The city owned it. The > mayor could ignore the complaints about the trolleys because the city > owned the trolleys. But in Pittsburgh it paid to fight the railways > company for political gain and the politicians constantly did it.> > Why did they go for so many single end cars in the 1920s? I'm > wrinkling my brow. Another reason might have something to do with > the narrow streets. Both Philadelphia and Pittsburgh had incredibly > narrow streets. I once looked at Charlie Dengler's negatives and > concluded that the average Pittsburgh PCC had lineal scratches within > two weeks after delivery from rubbing parked automobiles. Like > Pittsburgh, "Filthy-delphia" solved the same problem the same way. > They had 1000 single end Nearside cars and 530 single-end 8000s, > about 100 double end Hogs with PC control another 100 with K-control > and about 223 5200s ... A lot of the Nearsides were scrapped by the > time all the 8000s were there but it is probably safe to assume that > 1200 single end cars and 300 double end ones in the 1940s. > Philadelphia had cursedly narrow streets just like Pittsburgh. So > the solution was the same ... get those bloody green boxes into loops > and let them take their spot time off the streets. Los Angeles has > wide streets. San Diego has wide streets. San Francisco has > relatively wide streets. They can afford to ignore the issues.> > > On May 8, 2008, at 6:03 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:> > > Mr.Schneider;> >> >> > Even by your assumptions PRC was essentially an SE operator wasn't > > it -- 1920s forward or aprox 2/3 of its life. PRC inherited an > > hodgepodge of equipment, much double ended, but they swiftly moved > > to mostly SE low-floor equipment as standard -- older inherited > > equipment was converted to work car service or set aside rather > > rapidly.> >> > Precise dating is not necessary and the fact that a few lines > > needed loops installed for PCCs is inconsequential when the > > majority of lines already had loops didn't they. Relative to other > > properties that were essentially double end who found installing > > loops for single end PCCs rather daunting -- not unlike San > > Francisco, San Diego, even Los Angeles, cities in New Jersey and > > many others -- PRC would be considered an SE city -- not purely > > but mostly wouldn't it.> >> > It is a given among fans of PRC that the DE low-floors came first; > > 4398 was a late addition to the PERC fleet.> >> > Phil> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> >> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >> Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:45:32 PM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> >>> >> No Sir, the predominant equipment wasn't single-end. That was only> >> in the later years.> >>> >> And by the way, I don't require a Mister just because I've reached> >> the age of 68.> >>> >> Pittsburgh Railways endured from 1902 until 1964.> >>> >> From 1902 until 1909 there wasn't a single-end city car on the> >> property. I'm being careful with semantics because of the 3600> >> series Kuhlman interurbans.> >>> >> From 1953 until 1964 they didn't operate any double-end cars.> >>> >> When the ratio shifted from more double-end to more cars with> >> controls in only one end was something that would require more> >> research than I have time for or resources available for here. There> >> also needs to be a distinction made between cars on the fleet and> >> cars in service. You'll note from the roster that some double end> >> cars were also rebuilt into single end cars. I'm speaking of both> >> high floor cars, i.e. some 3500s that were rebuilt to match the 4000s> >> and 4100s as well as some low floor cars that were rebuilt as single-> >> end cars.> >>> >> I'm not sure when the balance shifted to single-end but probably some> >> time in the middle 1920s. As I recall, the roster shows 3400s and> >> 3500s still around in the early 1930s. Low floor cars went in> >> service on Oakmont - Verona in 1921 but in 1922 the route cars shows> >> a 3200 derailed on the line. It makes sense that all the 3100s and> >> 3200s and 3300s and 3400s would have been around in 1922 because you> >> didn't yet have all of the 4800s yet. They were still running> >> single-truck cars and open cars in the summer to the parks because> >> they needed them. The last single-truck open cars were not retired> >> until 1923.> >>> >> I've been converting all the important information on the route cards> >> to computer based records. There is a lot of drivel on them that> >> isn't worth keeping. We really don't care that a route was diverted> >> for a few hours because of a flood or a parade or a breakdown. I'm> >> only entering the permanent changes and the long term changes. Yes,> >> when they diverted route 53 off the 10th Street Bridge from 1930> >> until 1933 to build the new suspension bridge, that I think is long> >> enough to record. Also in those cards is a whole lot of information> >> on loops. PRC was building them all through the teens and twenties> >> and thirties and forties and fifties to accommodate single end high-> >> floor, low-floor, and PCC cars. It wasn't something that happened> >> over night.> >>> >> For example, route 48 Arlington didn't get a loop until 1947. Route> >> 78 never did. Route 76 conveniently looped around blocks at both> >> ends except that the Wood and Tioga (Hamilton Short) loop appears to> >> have been built about 1915 and the extension to Jane St. loop didn't> >> take place until 1937. Route 46 Beltzhoover didn't get a loop until> >> 1940. I'm not sure when 68 started looping in McKeesport ... I'm> >> not done with one. Route 53 Carrick didn't get the loop at> >> Brownsville until 1924. Perrysville got single-end cars when> >> Keating Car House opened in the 1920s. Gives you an idea.> >>> >> And now the industry has reverted back to the expense of two control> >> stands. I am not sure why. My suspicion is that the industry is> >> dominated by politicians and not by bean counters and it no longer> >> matters which method costs less.> >>> >> Last Saturday night a group of us ... Russ Jackson, John Swindler,> >> Joe Boscia, myself were sitting on Ed Lybarger's back porch. Herb> >> Brannon was there too. The discussion was about contemporary> >> industry practices. Joe worked for New Jersey Transit and is now in> >> consulting. Russ worked for Louis T. Klauder in rail car design.> >> After than he did the same thing for SEPTA and was in charge of the> >> Kawasaki surface cars and the N-5 project (P&W) and then he went back> >> into corporate consulting ... I don't think he'll ever retire John> >> heads the senior citizen program for PennDOT. Somehow the> >> discussion brought up the qualifications of the current SEPTA general> >> manager: fund raising, political schmoozing, etc., but at no point> >> was increasing passenger revenue part of the deal. Afterward> >> someone said we should have recorded it. So now you know why the> >> cars are now double-end again or you may have an inkling.> >>> >> fws3> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> On May 8, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:> >>> >>> Mr.Schneider!> >>>> >>>> >>> This is easily recognized isn't it -- NO OOOOPS about it is> >>> there!!. That still leaves the fact that the predominant equipment> >>> on PRC was single end doesn't it. The high-floor 4000s, 4700s thru> >>> 5500s, 3750s, 3700s, 3800s, 3600s all single end. Inherited> >>> equipment was hodge podge and with the introduction of the low-> >>> floor it became the standard equipment, predominantly single end.> >>> This made it very easy for the introduction of PCCs. A backup> >>> controller doesn't change the operating configuration does it.> >>>> >>>> >>> Phil> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----> >>>> From: Fred Schneider> >>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 3:44:37 PM> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> >>>>> >>>> OOOOPS! Phil, all of the early low-floor production cars were> >>>> double end. Note the word production.> >>>> The first four cars were converted trailers. They were initially> >>>> single-end but I think they evolved with time into double end cars.> >>>> The only one that last any length of time was 4423 which became an> >>>> instruction car and then became a play room for Bob Brown and > >>>> company> >>>> in the old Pittsburgh Chapter of the National Railway Historical> >>>> Society. Most of the NRHS members were drafted during the war and> >>>> the car shell became a lovely candidate for a war time metal scrap> >>>> drive. After the war most of those guys created the Pittsburgh> >>>> Electric Railway Club. I think many years later there was a> >>>> Pittsburgh NRHS Chapter again but not the same guys. And there> >>>> really isn't any one I can ask. Note that there are three > >>>> founding> >>>> members of PERC still around but all the old guys that were in the> >>>> prewar NRHS group are pushing up daisies.> >>>>> >>>> Then came the 4200s and 4300s. the double end motor cars came > >>>> between> >>>> 1914 and 1917. There were also a dozen second hand double-end > >>>> cars> >>>> from Beaver Valley Traction Company that PRC acquired in the 1920s> >>>> and numbered 4400-4411; they were built in 1917 as a tag onto the> >>>> 4350s.> >>>>> >>>> The single end cars were all built starting in 1917 and continuing> >>>> into 1927.> >>>>> >>>> The exception to that rule is that 3556 was the prototype for the> >>>> 3700-3714 interurbans.> >>>>> >>>> The 3750s were equivalent to the multiple unit equipped 5000s, > >>>> 5100s> >>>> and 5200s except that they were built for interurban service. When> >>>> new they had toilets. They also had a higher gear ratio between> >>>> traction motor pinions and the bull gears on the axles allowing for> >>>> higher speeds but of course slower acceleration. When the company> >>>> selectively speeded up certain cars of the 4700-5549 group, I think> >>>> they also did all the 3750s. Ultimately ten of the 4350s were > >>>> done,> >>>> probably for the 99 Glassport line and our 4398 is one of the few> >>>> high speed double end cars.> >>>>> >>>> One thing I noticed when the truck was apart a few weeks ago is > >>>> that> >>>> it has helical drive gears. Now that wasn't something that the > >>>> car> >>>> got when it was new. I suspect the helical gears were > >>>> installed as> >>>> part of the rebuilding when the cars were speeded up to make them a> >>>> little less noisy. That was done in the early 1930s> >>>>> >>>> I put a roster on line perhaps five years ago and I'm putting it on> >>>> again. But you need Microsoft Word to open it.> >>>>> >>>> To make life easier for those who do not have Word, i.e. those who> >>>> have the home MS Works edition or have Word Perfect, I resaved > >>>> it as> >>>> a text file. It isn't formatted into pages ... just a bloody > >>>> run on> >>>> document, but you will be able to open it and read it.> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________> > Be a better friend, newshound, and> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http:// > > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> >> >> > 
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