[PRCo] Re: SE DE

Sun May 18 14:26:44 EDT 2008

Chicago is the one that I was wondering about.  There was generally no reversing anywhere near the loop, but there were some long, heavy north-south routes.  Maybe I can find a old track map from 1920s to see what sort of terminal facilities existed at some of these terminals.  

The Dallas PCC cars that went to Boston were to replace Type 5s used as sort-turns near the subway portals.  This is a vague recollection that needs verified.

Maybe another question might be who was buying double end equipment for trunk route service in the 1920s???  Brooklyn had several hundred, and the Boston Type 5s came rather late in the game.  But I can not recall ever seeing any pix of 5-6 cars waiting to reverse ends in a large city??

John
> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:36:37 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > just occurred to me that several huge systems used predominantly double > enders, costs and lost seating capacity aside:Boston-pre-PCC 100%-despite > loops on most lines(and btw, also post-PCC), Chicago(many outer routes > lacked loops), Brooklyn, Third Avenue, Baltimore, LARwys; San Francisco, > Washington DC> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:54 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > But I grew up in Pgh late 50s and early 60s, Fred, so the gas stations > > sprouting up in the loop terminals is a remembrance. Things like > > Birmingham and Vera Cruz converting HL cars to K controller and to single > > end operation involved 'noted in passing' while reading magazines.> >> > Hard to think who else might have converted double end cars to single end > > 'Peter Witt' operation other then Birmingham. Didn't Baltimore have > > mostly DE cars until the PCCs, but still had loops at most terminals? And > > most routes 'through-routed' to avoid downtown terminals. And Mitten > > management bought 1500 nearside cars around 1912, but a lot of routes were > > on parallel streets. And didnt' Red Arrow converted 69th St. terminal > > from stub to loop at some point but kept the stub terminals at outer ends?> >> > You could almost claim that all large cities eventually went to single end > > operation, and then note the exceptions. And why would the large cities > > do this but not the Lancasters? As Russ, Herb and I have been claiming: > > headways. And this was a lesson lost on MUNI management by 1970s.> >> > That was the major consideration pushing this issue. Just about > > everything else was secondary.> >> > John> >> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> Date: Sat, 17 > >> May 2008 18:02:51 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Not sure > >> how many places converted DE to SE. Pittsburgh did. > Birmingham might > >> have. I never paid much attention to what was > happening in Vera Cruz. > >> You're right about management not > caring ... but they do care if it > >> means you can cut cars out of a > schedule or if cars back up or if > >> politicians complain because of the > problem. Come on John ... gas > >> stations were not issues when we > made those changes ... Pittsburgh > >> leased a lot of loops for gas > stations but that was late in the game > >> and had nothing to do with the > earlier years. You will also recall how > >> the city reacted to PRC > doing that ... "How dare you make money doing > >> that!!!!!!!"> > On May 17, 2008, at 5:06 PM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> > >> >> > Switch points and frogs needed for stub terminals, but not needed > > >> > for a loop. Although it is nice to have a siding at a loop.>!> > >> > Also, with a loop, if large enough, the center part can be leased > > > > for a gas station. Pirl St. comes to mind, but won't swear to it.> >> > > > And management doesn't care if the motorman has to "lug" handles, > > > > farebox and supplies to the other end. They do care if cars back > > up > > because of scheduled headway and congestion at the terminal.> >> > Didnt' > > Vera Cruz shop double end cars to convert to single end? > > Likewise > > Birmingham?> > John> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] > > Re: SE DE> Date: > >> Sat, 17 May 2008 15:03:05 -0400> To: pittsburgh- > > > >> railways at dementia.org> > A lot of reasons for single-end > >> > > equipment:> > 1) you can put more people in more seats. Depending > >> on > > how wide the > center doors are or whether or not there are > >> center > > doors, a single- > end car will seat 9 to 23 more people > >> than a > > double-end car. > Therefore you have more happy customers.> > >> > 2) > > Happy customers produce more revenue.> > 3) Seats cost le!> > ss > >> than additional controls, wiring, air brake > piping and hand> >> >> brake rigging.> > 4) Turn around time at the ends of lines using > >> > >> >> single end equipment > is shorter than that required for double- > >> > >> >> end equipment. The > operator doesn't have to lug the handles, > >> > >> >> money changer, his supplies > and the fare box to the other end of > > >> >> >> the car and flip all those > blankety-blank seats. You can go > >> > >> >> through a loop, fill in the day > card, and be out in 30 seconds. > >> > >> >> The double end car will require > several mi!> > nutes. So single end > >> >> cars on a line might save a car or > two in > > the rush hour and > >> >> that, in today's dollars is $2 million for > an > > articulated or > >> >> about $1 million for a single car.> > 5) Traffic > > congestion favors > >> >> single end equipment because you can > turn it on > > private > >> >> property.> > Working against it and in favor of the double- > > end > >> >> cars you already have:> > 1) loops, either on private property > > or > >> >> around city streets cost > money. Special work is incredibly > > > >> >> costly to fabricate. ("Spec!> > ial > work" is the term used for track > > frogs and switch points. It is > > > usually a manganese steel which is > > much harder and more durable than > > > ordinary carbon-steel.)> > 2) > > If you build the loop on private > > property, the real estate costs > > > money. If there is already a house > > there, it costs money to > > > demolish it, fill in the basement and level > > the property.> > 3) If > > you have a large fleet of undepreciated and not > > fully > amortized > > double-cars, you really don't want to write them off > > and > buy ne!> > w single-end cars if you can you don't have to. You also > > > don't want> > to spend the money shopping those double-end cars to > > > convert them > > into single-end cars if you don't have to because that > > > costs > > money.> > 4) Stockholders don't like you spending their money on > > > > things you > don't need.> > 5) When I say double-end cars you > > > > already have, remember that > everyone already had double-end cars. > > > > That is the way the industry > start!> > ed.> > 6) You can also turn > > double-end cars on a spur onto private> > property > but once you have > > the land for a spur, you might as well > > take > advantage of items i, > > 2, 3 and 4 in the first section.> > And > > then there is the narrow > > versus wide streets issue.> > Finally there > > is the status quo > > issue. Every business is filled > with people whose > > mentality > > favors "we've always done it that way and > we should > > continue to > > do so" regardless of whether or not it makes > any sense > > at all.> > > > > On May 17, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell > > wrote:> > > > > ----- Original Message ----> >> From: John Swindler > > > > <j_swindler at hotmail.co!> > m>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >> > > Sent: Saturday, > > May 17, 2008 8:34:55 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > >>> >>> >> > > Ah, Fred,> >> Russ Jackson told us a very valid reason for > > large > > cities to go to > >> single end> >> equipment, and Ed Tennyson > > has > > told us about the 1700 series > >> interurban> >> purchase.> >>> > > >> > > Russ' stories about MUNI also says a !> > lot about the Third Ave. Ry. > > > >> route> >> structure in Manhattan.> > > >> > Mr.Swindler!> >> > > > ....And those stories are?> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Change the world with e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > > > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx? > > > > source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld> >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ > > GreaterGood> >> > > > 
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