[PRCo] Re: Streetcar Loops

Tue May 20 16:42:05 EDT 2008

I came to know what I know largely as a result of rejecting railfans'
reasoning and pronouncements.  As Fred says, many of them believe only what
they want to believe.  By questioning a lot of "presumed knowledge," I've
unearthed a lot of factual material that proved it inaccurate.  That led to
studying what I am responsible for at PTM...old company records and photos.
Having a business background, it was fairly simple to learn a lot from those
records.  And it was more interesting to learn once I got over the old saws
that had been perpetuated by the old foamers.

One principle on which I place the highest value is "There is a logical
reason for every decision."  And to add my two cents' worth on the SE-DE
issue...PRCo went to SE cars because it made economic sense to do so.  I
don't have to analyze it to death to know that!  And if someday we unearth
data that confirms this, so much the better.

It has also been said that I have a certain economy of words.  I find that
serves me, along with my "constituency," well, in both this field and the
one that was my vocation for many years.  I was taught that it's the
quality, not the quantity, that counts!

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Phillip
Clark Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:14 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcar Loops

Mr.Lybarger!

Agree whole-heartedly don't I.  My comments about preponderance of evidence
reflect the human error syndrome don't they - one piece of evidence doesn't
make 'the' truth but several pieces of evidence are better.

We sometimes try to glean too many 'facts' from past information and the
'why' behind SE is very elusive now isn't it.  We can easily see what they
'did' 'very early on' by ordering predominantly SE equipment but our
explanations as to 'why' with the vantage of hind sight could be
considerably different from their 'why.'  While websites may not have the
best of information many times there is a parallel here on the list as well
isn't there - many emails seem to be nothing more than discussion for the
purpose of discussion without accomplishment.  This is most evident when
reading through the archives isn't it, a laborious task at best and made
more difficult by such emails!

I am more a trolley hobbyist aren't I.  PRC existed, contributed strongly to
the economy of the day, in addition to being an huge amusement ride for the
fan.  I am therefore more interest in the 'what' than the 'why' but not
exclusively - depends on the topic doesn't it.

>From reading the archives your approach seems very methodical doesn't it.  I
am assured that your information has good background depth and always look
forward to your comments.

Phil

----- Original Message ----
> From: Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 12:45:40 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcar Loops
> 
> The "car cards" are quite incomplete because no one had the foresight 
> to collect more than a handful of them!  They no longer exist except 
> for those few.
> 
> The route cards, on the other hand, were intended to be a complete history
> of events of and affecting the various routes of the company.   That there
> are omissions and occasionally errors is simply testimony to the fact 
> that humans will sometimes screw up, regardless of the best 
> intentions.  It also has to do with priorities...the scribe du jour 
> may not think the same thing is noteworthy that yesterday's writer 
> would have included.  And the scribe may also have been preoccupied 
> with something on any given day, so an item may not have made it into the
record.
> 
> If we don't interpret the available evidence with the best knowledge 
> we can put behind it, we will have failed the future.  I'm not sure 
> that the court system cares a hang about that any more as long as 
> someone is enriched.  But that's not our purpose as historians.
> 
> Ed
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of 
> Phillip Clark Campbell
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 3:23 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcar Loops
> 
> Mr.Schneider did say just the other day that the 'car cards' of PRC 
> were quite incomplete didn't he; why should we think that the route 
> cards were any different?  PRC didn't keep records for historians nor 
> railfans did they; what they entered 'for the record' was what seemed 
> expedient or important for the moment.  The best we can say today is:  
> "The PRC record shows..."  and those items are not necessarily ''the' 
> facts' but 'may' be considered 'best evidence' until more information 
> is available.  As with the court system it would be a preponderance of 
> evidence, not one piece of evidence, which determines the 'apparent'
facts.
> 
> With all that it seems the 'preponderance of evidence' according to 
> equipment orders 1910-1928 strongly suggests the intention of SE 
> operations as time / money / real estate / etc. / etc. / etc.  
> permitted.  PRC had not a small amount of DE equipment which was 
> 'young' and a good business person would desire to get the best value from
that equipment.
> 
> I have often seen comments in the archives about this being an 
> 'imperfect world' haven't I - thus pure SE operations would seem 
> elusive even with the best of intentions.  It did eventually happen though
didn't it!
> 
> 
> http://www.davesrailpix.com/boston/htm/bos184.htm - shows an ex-Dallas 
> DE in Boston without one trolley pole; as I mentioned earlier these 
> cars were eventually SE weren't they.
> 
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Ken & Tracie
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Cc: SCOTT GREIG ; Charles Brown
> > 
> > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 9:37:42 PM
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcar Loops
> > 
> > For the most part, I've given up trying to confuse people with the
facts.