[PRCo] Re: PRC History

[Fred Schneider]

Let me play good cop, bad cop Phil, on the off chance that the word  
"division" is a foreign language to you.

Division is something you do in mathematics when you split a number  
by another number.

In railroad parlance, a division is a group of lines.   For example  
the Philadelphia Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad was everything  
from Paoli westward to BANKS interlocking tower north of Enola, and  
from (I think) Norristown north to Reading and Wilkes-Barre.  Of  
course it included many yards and engine terminals.   (Later the PRR  
changed to Regions.)

In Pittsburgh Railways terminology, a division was synonymous with  
those lines operating out of a particular car house, i.e. Division 1  
consisted of the lines running from Car House #1 while Division 13  
were lines running from Car House #13.    But if they moved a line  
from Car House 7 to Car House 4, they didn't always change the route  
number which further complicates the story.

We might find that the division numbers are equivalent to seniority  
list numbers or crew assignment list numbers and that a line keeping  
the same number if it changed car houses might have only meant that  
the car crews continued to work out of the previous station.    But  
that's a whole 'nuther issue and one that isn't covered by the route  
cards.  I'm not going there.

The route numbers were administrative in nature and were not  
something the public was given.   The destination numbers were  
assigned supposedly for the "convenience of the passengers".    
However, my father, who came from Marietta, Ohio via Cleveland to go  
to college in Pittsburgh, found the PRC destination signs  
bewildering.  Cleveland destination signs told where the car was  
going.   Pittsburgh signs didn't tell him much of anything.  So if  
you were to have fed him bullshit that the destination numbers were  
assigned to make it easier for the passengers, he would have figured  
some politician was telling him another lie.  Those destination  
numbers were assigned very simply by starting with numbers 1, 2, 3, 4  
and 5 at Millvale Car House and then working around the city in a  
counter clockwise direction until you got to 99.   Yeah, right, so  
how did 97, 98 and 99 get in before 93, 94, 95 and 96?  Ask,  
Pittsburgh Railways, I haven't a clue?  And there is another  
mystery.   How did 35 and 36 remain unused all those years and  
suddenly in 1953 become assigned to Library and Drake (in clockwise  
instead of counter clockwise order) right before 37 Castle Shannon?

Ed said that the route numbers were done because the passengers were  
having trouble with the colored (coloured?) signs on the cars.  I  
might add that colored lights/signs on cars are also for the  
convenience of passengers.   Many cities used colored lights or signs  
to enable immigrants, who did not speak English, to find their way  
home. West Penn used color-coded signs.   United Railways in  
Baltimore numbered cars for routes and put colored glass in the  
clerestory windows for routes, changing the numbers and glass every  
time they reassigned a car to a new carbarn.   Boston still color  
codes routes today.  I guess changing from colors to numbers simply  
fits into the category of people think you are helping them if you  
just make changes and tell them the changes are good for them!   You  
can put brighter lights in the factory this year and tell them that  
is good.  Five years from now you can put 40 watt bulbs in the  
factory and tell them that will save their eyes from glare and that  
is good.

Go ahead and grin.   I am.



On May 26, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:

> I thought I had done that when I said that the interurban lines  
> operated out
> of Divisions 12 and 13...the first digit or two of the route number  
> was the
> division from which it operated.
>
> The two-digit destination numbers came about in 1914 when PRCo  
> figured out
> that the average person wasn't going to interpret the colored  
> marker signs
> on top of the cars and translate them into destinations or route  
> numbers.
> I'm guessing there was some not-so-gentle pressure from the city  
> and the
> press, as well.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of  
> Phillip
> Clark Campbell
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:30 AM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRC History
>
> Mr.Lybarger!
>
>
> Below you wrote: "In the earlier years, it hadn't become the calcified
> railroad mindset that allowed change only under duress."  This is the
> 'concrete' to which I referred didn't I.  Nothing new under the sun  
> is there
> so calcification probably happened to PRC - just when.
>
> I recognize that PRC had 'book-keeping' route numbers in the 3-or-4- 
> digits
> but used only 2-digits on the cars themselves didn't they.  Can you  
> state a
> purpose for the 3-4-digit variety?
>
> Someone mentioned something about assumptions didn't they.  That is  
> all they
> are - not unlike postulations that are expressed while looking for  
> facts /
> truth; nothing implied that it is truth is there.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:00:35 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRC History
>
> There was never any concrete.  But there were railfans who liked to  
> think
> that the system as it was about 1940 should be the gold standard.  The
> change after that was of course shrinkage, but the fans cried every  
> time a
> route was lost.  Much whining and caterwauling occurred between  
> 1951 and
> 1971, by which time the system took essentially its present  
> dimensions.
>
> You are reading something into my route vs destination comments  
> that is not
> there.  They were absolutely arbitrary.  All the PRCo routes had  
> numbers.
> The interurbans never had two-digit destination numbers, however.   
> They had
> four-digit route numbers, because they operated out of Divisions 12  
> and 13.
> I think you actually need to study the route cards like Fred, John  
> and I
> have done to even begin to comprehend what the relationships were  
> between
> the route numbers and the destination numbers.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of  
> Phillip
> Clark Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 3:44 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] PRC History
>
>
> Mr.Lybarger!
>
> We could say that the only 'constant' is 'change' couldn't we.   
> This is very
> true everywhere today inside and outside the railway companies  
> isn't it.
> Outsiders notice it most; people living through the change don't  
> notice it
> as much until they reflect do they.  Just look at the city Of Pgh  
> itself
> over the years / decades  --  goodness!  From your studies have you  
> found a
> time frame where the mindset of PRC became set in concrete?  I  
> would guess
> that this is after the railway was essentially formed and  
> stabilized.  The
> consolidation of hundreds into PRC would see a tremendous amount of
> restructuring for a couple decades.  Once auto competition became  
> keen the
> railway would 'probably not' realize much growth but rather  
> adjustment to
> reflect needs; this might be when the concrete sets.
>
> This distinction may have come later than mentioned below but it is  
> now
> generally recognized that Interurbans used Destination signs and  
> city lines
> used Route Signs.  Destination signs were just that - the town to  
> which the
> Interurban traveled and usually lacked letter / number preface.   
> City routes
> used letter / number preface to a name of a location / dominant  
> street /
> etc.  There are exceptions - Johnstown didn't use letters / numbers  
> and
> neither did Boston in the past - could be others.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net>
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 7:16:18 AM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 97
>
>>> A point that has been eluding us all in these discussions is that  
>>> until
> 1938, the numbers we came to know as route numbers were officially
> "destination numbers."  The route numbers were the three-digit  
> numbers.
>
>>> The other thread that can't ever be forgotten is how much things  
>>> changed
> in a fairly quick time frame.  In the earlier years, it hadn't  
> become the
> calcified railroad mindset that allowed change only under duress.
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
>> John Swindler
>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 1:00 AM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 97
>>
>>
>> Maybe because very early 98 wasn't Glassport-Wilmerding, and it is  
>> the
>> railfans on this fantrip that were correct.
>>
>> So what listing do you have for 97, Fred???
>>
>> John
>>
>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 97
>>> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 16:29:49 -0400
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org So, Boris, what is your point
>>> by enclosing was is obviously a fantrip rollsign?
>>> During the PCC era 98 was Glassport - Pirl Street. Very early 98 was
>>> also Glassport Wilmerding.> > > >
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