[PRCo] Re: Baltimore Light Rail Shuts North End

[Phillip Clark Campbell]

Mr.Schneider;


That's a true and false question isn't it where the answer is true and false.  Some equipment has the sand pipes are flexible and mounted to the trucks to prevent this problem on curves; believe this is true on many modern cars but also some older.  Not so with most PCCs.


Phil






----- Original Message ----
> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 1:44:49 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Baltimore Light Rail Shuts North End
> 
> Yes, and on loops and curves you have to learn to run without sand.    
> Why?  Because the sand pipes are aiming it outside the rail.   Again  
> why?   Because the sand pipes are normally mounted on the body  
> instead of the trucks and therefore swing away from the rails on  
> sharp curves.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 4:31 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >
> >> From: Schneider Fred 
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:49:03 PM
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Baltimore Light Rail Shuts North End
> >>
> >>
> >> Had you dropped sand and made a controlled brake application you may
> >> well have stopped in time.   But that isn't what you are supposed to
> >> do in an emergency.   You are supposed to protect the company in the
> >> event of a law suit.   You are supposed to use the red button..
> >>
> >> Understood?
> >
> >
> > Let's see:  I said:  "The problem lies with using the sanders  
> > effectively - for sanding to be effective on starting the sand must  
> > be under all wheels."  Thus on braking it is the same - sand to get  
> > sand under all wheels, then apply the brakes.
> >
> > Yes. Mr.Schneider;  I understand, don't I?
> >
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> >> I can walk an old streetcar out of the loop in Baltimore on sap
> >> covered rails with no trouble at all..   You leave the air on or the
> >> hand brakes on.   You apply a point of power.   You gradually ease
> >> off on the air or the hand brake.   The car inches forward slowly
> >> under control.  (Or you can release the brakes fully, pull a point of
> >> power and watch the car sit there with the wheels spinning.)    The
> >> old guys knew how.   But knowing how and protecting the agency from
> >> lawyers are two different things.   Now if you are talking a PCC, you
> >> can't apply air and power at the same time.   Sorry.   They weren't
> >> built that way.
> >>
> >> Fred (not Mr. Schneider)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 19, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Mr.Schneider;
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> According to the article it 'isn't' oil in leaves but "gelatinous
> >>> substance" isn't it.  That is a tongue in cheek comment.
> >>>
> >>> I guess we can say that we didn't have this problem in the good 'ol
> >>> days of (fill in the blank) but with the advent of modern tech slip/
> >>> slide features it just needs to be tweaked to work properly doesn't
> >>> it.  Do these cars have sanders and do the sanders activate with
> >>> slip/slide?  (They are quite concerned about wheel damage but not
> >>> fall on board accidents from the bone chilling stops.)  It would
> >>> then seem something is lacking in wheel design wouldn't it.  This
> >>> shouldn't be that much a problem on open T rail since it would be
> >>> difficult for leaves to accumulate; the problem would be most
> >>> pronounced on streets or at stations if the track is paved.
> >>>
> >>> Pittsburgh obviously suffered from this in the good 'ol days but I
> >>> only remember a couple incidents - all wheels spinning when leaving
> >>> a stop and sanding did little or nothing.  The problem lies with
> >>> using the sanders effectively - for sanding to be effective on
> >>> starting the sand must be under all wheels.  Thus the problem needs
> >>> to be anticipated and sanding done when braking for at least one
> >>> car length.  Don't remember any sliding when stopping but that is
> >>> also possible even probable isn't it..
> >>>
> >>> The so-called 'sweating' rails is also a problem isn't it -
> >>> infamous pat 1726 incident.  Was on a Charleroi car inbound that
> >>> had alot of trouble one winter - good amount of snow on the ground
> >>> almost up to rail height.  We were near Latimer leaving the stop
> >>> which produced endless spinning of the wheels on very many separate
> >>> applications of power.  Operator finally used a little sand to get
> >>> going.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>> From: Schneider Fred
> >>>> To: Bente Bruce ; Peter Folger
> >>>> ; pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org;
> >>>> Murphy Rick ; Ken Spengler
> >>>> ; Lybarger Ed
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:32:11 AM
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Baltimore Light Rail Shuts North End
> >>>>
> >>>> You guys will love this one ... modern technology forced the  
> >>>> closure
> >>>> of the north end of the Baltimore Light Rail line indefinitely on
> >>>> Monday because of falling leaves.   I guess we never had sap on the
> >>>> rails before.  Something new and different like my cynical sarcasm.
> >>>> Today's news is that they are also running short of buses.    
> >>>> (Some of
> >>>> you -- Jack, Phil, Dave H. are getting blind carbons to not  
> >>>> disclose
> >>>> addresses.)   Comments back to me will be appreciated.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal- 
> >>>> te.md.rail18nov18,0,3518289.story
> >>>>
> >>>> baltimoresun.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Half of light rail halted indefinitely
> >>>>
> >>>> Leaves trigger braking glitch, causing trains to slide, wheels to
> >>>> bend
> >>>>
> >>>> By Michael Dresser and Brent Jones
> >>>>
> >>>> November 18, 2008
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Thousands of Baltimore-area commuters were forced to abandon trains
> >>>> and board buses yesterday, the first workday disrupted by a light
> >>>> rail shutdown that closed the northern half of the system. State
> >>>> officials were unable to say how long service would be curtailed  
> >>>> by a
> >>>> problem caused in part by the fall of autumn leaves.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Commuters attempting to take light rail between North Avenue and  
> >>>> Hunt
> >>>> Valley were diverted to shuttle buses, which passengers said  
> >>>> added as
> >>>> much as 90 minutes to the trip.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Light rail typically serves 30,000 riders a day - about half of  
> >>>> whom
> >>>> use the northern stations.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> MTA officials were scrambling to find a way to fix a computerized
> >>>> safety system that regularly over-reacts to slippery conditions and
> >>>> brings trains to a hard stop, frequently damaging their wheels and
> >>>> making them vulnerable to catastrophic cracking.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "I understand there has to be train maintenance, but there seems to
> >>>> be lots of train maintenance recently," said Lori Biddle, 30,  
> >>>> who was
> >>>> among several dozen commuters waiting for a shuttle to arrive at  
> >>>> the
> >>>> North Avenue station about 4:45 p.m. yesterday.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Biddle said it took her an extra half-hour yesterday morning to go
> >>>> from Lutherville to Camden Yards, where she works: "It is a bit
> >>>> frustrating."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Maryland Transportation Secretary John D. Porcari defended the  
> >>>> MTA's
> >>>> decision over the weekend to suspend service on the northern  
> >>>> section.
> >>>> "They take customer service interruptions very, very personally, as
> >>>> do I," Porcari said. But, he said, "if we ignored it, it could be a
> >>>> safety issue, and safety trumps everything."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Problems with light rail go back to the original design and  
> >>>> route of
> >>>> the system, which opened in 1992 under pressure from then-Gov.
> >>>> William Donald Schaefer to get it running in time for the debut of
> >>>> Oriole Park at Camden Yards. The northern section of the line  
> >>>> follows
> >>>> a narrow, old railroad right of way along the Jones Falls  
> >>>> Expressway
> >>>> through forested parkland before emerging from the woods north of
> >>>> Ruxton.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem, Porcari said yesterday, is that trains run over fallen
> >>>> leaves and can grind the wet plant matter into what he described  
> >>>> as a
> >>>> "gelatinous substance."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> When another train comes along, the wheels of its cars can slip and
> >>>> slide on that substance, triggering an emergency response from a
> >>>> computerized "train protection" system installed after two light  
> >>>> rail
> >>>> crashes at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall
> >>>> Airport, in which 35 people were injured.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The computerized system, in use since 2004, has succeeded in
> >>>> preventing trains from crashing into each other or into barriers at
> >>>> the end of the line. But according to MTA administrator Paul J.
> >>>> Wiedefeld, its hair-trigger response to slippage on the tracks has
> >>>> resulted in hard, sudden stops that can flatten the metal  
> >>>> surface of
> >>>> the wheels - putting them in added danger of cracking.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Wiedefeld said the MTA has paid more attention to the issue of  
> >>>> wheel
> >>>> damage since the discovery last spring of a crack in one of the
> >>>> wheels of a car in a rail yard.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That discovery prompted the agency to inspect wheels much more
> >>>> frequently than the 45-day schedule recommended by the  
> >>>> manufacturer.
> >>>> That led to service disruptions, including severe crowding and long
> >>>> waits at platforms.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Last week, as train slippage caused by leaves sent a growing number
> >>>> of cars to the shop, the MTA announced that it would terminate its
> >>>> northern service at Timonium, using buses to serve stations between
> >>>> there and Hunt Valley. But by the weekend, the MTA had so many cars
> >>>> out of service that it decided to call an emergency halt to service
> >>>> north of North Avenue - the most leafy section.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Wiedefeld said the agency is attempting to find an interim solution
> >>>> to the problems by recalibrating the train protection system so  
> >>>> that
> >>>> it acts more like the anti-lock brake systems found on cars. The
> >>>> "ultimate fix," he said, will not come until the MTA completes its
> >>>> planned midlife overhaul of its train cars - a project expected  
> >>>> to be
> >>>> finished about 2011-2012.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Until then, Wiedefeld said, the MTA has its maintenance shop  
> >>>> working
> >>>> around the clock to repair or replace wheels. He said the flattened
> >>>> wheels can be fixed three times before they require replacement - a
> >>>> procedure that can put an entire car out of commission for 15 days.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Wiedefeld said he does not have an estimate now of how long it will
> >>>> take to fix the computer problem. He said any proposed solution  
> >>>> would
> >>>> have to be tested on the main line and then verified by an
> >>>> independent contractor before it can be implemented. He added,
> >>>> however, that he doesn't think the disruptions will persist for
> >>>> months.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Porcari echoed Wiedefeld's reluctance to be pinned down to a target
> >>>> date for the return of full service, noting that the weather  
> >>>> could be
> >>>> a factor in how long the disruptions continue.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "The natural tendency is to be conservative in your estimates and
> >>>> then over-deliver if at all possible," he said. He noted that when
> >>>> transportation officials discovered weaknesses in the Bay Bridge's
> >>>> side barriers after a fatal tractor-trailer crash last summer, they
> >>>> originally estimated 10 weeks of severe lane closings but ended up
> >>>> wrapping up the work in about two.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> For riders of light rail, relief can't come soon enough.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Lee Russell, 60, said it took him an extra 90 minutes yesterday
> >>>> morning to get from Timonium to his job at the state Department of
> >>>> Health and Mental Hygiene near the Cultural Center stop. Russell  
> >>>> said
> >>>> he learned about the shuttle buses when he arrived at the Timonium
> >>>> station, and traffic and the frequent stops stretched out his trip.
> >>>>
> >>>> Russell, a longtime rider, will continue to use the transit system
> >>>> because he doesn't have a downtown parking pass, but he added  
> >>>> that he
> >>>> expects delays to be reduced substantially.
> >>>>
> >>>> "I've put up with a lot over the years, including when they were
> >>>> laying double tracks," he said.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim Dutt, 65, who commutes from Mount Washington to the Mount Royal
> >>>> Station, said he learned only yesterday morning that he would  
> >>>> have to
> >>>> board a shuttle bus. He said he was 30 minutes late to his job  
> >>>> at the
> >>>> University of Baltimore.
> >>>>
> >>>> "I think [MTA] needs to explain a little bit more as to why this is
> >>>> taking place at this point and why it's taking so long," Dutt said.
> >>>> "Last week, they were running single cars. And now it's gotten
> >>>> worse."
> >>>>
> >>>> Dutt said he will continue to ride the train but will adjust his
> >>>> start time.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "It's one of the hazards, I suppose, of using the light rail," he
> >>>> said. "But I'm not going to switch. I enjoy coming to work by rail
> >>>> and not having to worry about a place to park."
> >>>>
> >>>> Autumn leaves are not a problem unique to Maryland's light rail
> >>>> system, said Martin Schroeder, program manager for rail at the
> >>>> American Public Transit Association. He noted that when the trade
> >>>> group held its 2006 rail conference, it put together a panel of
> >>>> experts to deal with that issue alone.
> >>>>
> >>>> "It's a problem of physics," Schroeder said, adding that leaves can
> >>>> reduce friction on the rails to about one-sixth of normal: "It's  
> >>>> like
> >>>> your car on ice."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Porcari said the problems with leaves reach their peak in late
> >>>> October and November but subside soon after that.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "The leaves will all be done very soon," he said. "A couple of good
> >>>> winds, and we'll be off to the races."
> >>>>
> >>>> Copyright © 2008, The Baltimore Sun
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >