[PRCo] Re: West Penn 832

Thu Nov 27 11:01:01 EST 2008

What we KNOW is that the 830s had additional resistors added when they came
to the Coke Region (lots of photo evidence in the 1940-41 era, when they
began their work on Phillips, Latrobe, Fairchance and South Connellsville)
and that West Penn told the PUC that car 832 had 460,984 miles on it when it
finished at Allegheny Valley.  We also KNOW that 832 still has these
resistors attached.

We do NOT know what work was in fact done on 832 in 1949, beyond a coat of
fresh paint.  From the car's condition three years later, it is likely that
there wasn't much body prep prior to the painting.  We do NOT know that any
wiring was changed.  We are told by Westinghouse, in the personna of
Bombardier/Dave Hamley, that the motor housings are sufficiently small that
it would not have been possible to rewind them with larger wire.  He expects
to find the motors exactly to spec when they go out for servicing.

I doubt that there was ever a "mid-life" overhaul on any of these cars.  The
PUC was told they would be repainted, yet only two were...839 early on and
832 in 1949.  I believe that the service they were running in the Coke
Region produced wear and tear on the motors, but not from voltage.  Thus
there could have been some motor rewinding to spec, but nothing beyond.
Since the 1425A is so tiny compared to the Westinghouse 56s that were on
everything else, the additional maintenance would have been extraordinary to
the shop crews and they would have talked about it.  I think the railfans
invented the part about the higher voltage being responsible.

Another thing we DON'T know is what happened when the 830s were assigned to
the Irwin line and very quickly withdrawn.  There is ONE photo of one of
these cars in Irwin.  Art Ellis writes in a trip account about 1945 or 1946
of a grade on the east end of Jeannette:  "It was on this grade, one wintry
day in 1938, that eight of the twelve low-wheeled Valley Route cars were
crippled.  As a result of this fiasco, the former McKeesport cars were
rebuilt for interurban service, and the 800s were removed to lines more
suited to them."  I have found no mention of such an occurrence in the
newspapers of that era, though, and I think something of that magnitude
would have been reported.  Maybe I haven't looked deep enough.  But I can
imagine the low-slung tiny motors getting very wet in the snow.

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of John
Swindler
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:10 AM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn 832

There was an observation several years ago that energy costs were close to
platform costs prior to WWI.  Then with post war inflation and improved
efficiency at energy generation and delivery, energy became a much smaller
percentage of operating costs.  And as you implied, hauling the weight of a
700 around, or even a 290, perhaps negated the cost of the dropping
resistors.

And do we know to what extent 832 was rewired??  Was it nothing more then
the installation of dropping resistors?  The car wiring was only 20 years
old and had not been subjected to extensive salt corrosion.  Was this
another railfan fantasy???  Because why would you give a car a mid-life
overhaul in 1949 when you already had plans to covert lines south of
Uniontown???  Would not be surprised if 832 received nothing more then
dropping resistors (were these found when 832 taken apart or is this another
fantasy???), a coat of paint, and rostered as an active car for South
Connellsville.  The shop philosophy might have been - if it breaks, and will
cost money, replace it with another car.

Also like Fred's comment about motorman Ivan.  There are stories of British
steam locomotives surviving because they were a particular favorite of
certain engineers.

Curious situation

John

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn 832> Date:
Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:26:33 -0500> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > I
do not wish to contest the supreme being when it comes to West Penn >
knowledge. Ed has done more research on that subject than anyone on > the
planet. Much of the other stuff out there was simply given to > the club and
printed by Bob Brown. Ed has been seriously digging.> > However, it has been
reported that 832 was the only car rewired. > Obviously this had to be done
if any cars were to be retained because > what we now call "mid-life
overhauls" were needed. Each of the 830s > had nearly a million miles on
them by the late 1940s.> > And one other car was selected for rewiring and
had been stripped > down and the body was repainted in primer. I have seen a
picture of > it in gray primer. I thin the car was 833. Then the project was
> canceled and that car was stored until scrapped in 1951 or 1952. > (Half
of the 830s were scr!
 apped in each of those two years.> > Now if there was a second car planned
for overhaul, then how does the > accident with 292 figure into 832's
logevity? Or did the was the > survival of 832 predicated, as we have
earlier suggested, more simply > on the paternalistic attitude of West Penn.
In other words, we kept > it because Motorman Ivan liked the car and we all
liked Ivan.> > Now that it has come out that West Penn installed dropping
resistors > in the propulsion circuit to run those cars on 700-750 volts in
the > Coke Region, it becomes even more curious that the corporation >
retained cars on which you were always running in resistance and > wasting
energy. The savings because of the weight in the depression > had to be so
compelling over running heavier 700s that the wasted > energy by running on
resistance didn't matter.> > > On Nov 26, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Edward H.
Lybarger wrote:> > > Yes, it was pretty bad before the repaint, which
probably wouldn't > > have> > hap!
 pened if 292 hadn't had its end destroyed in a collision > > somewhere  in>
> this time frame (I'm only through 1940 in reading the newspaper so > >
don't> > have the date). West Penn then needed 832 as the spare car on
South> > Connellsville; the other 830s were gone (or at least going) by this
> > point in> > time.> >> > -----Original Message-----> > From:
pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org> >
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of > >
John> > Swindler> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:11 PM> > To:
pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn 832> >> >>
> There were four pic of 832 on the Fairbanks collection of > > pictures.
It> > looked dreadful in a 1949 pic. I should have provided a link.> >> >
Sorry> > John> >> >> From: trams2 at comcast.net> To:
pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > >> Subject:> > [PRCo] Re: West Penn 832>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:44:01 -0500> > > > 1949> > photo? I think John
means 1952. 832 was painted in the Fall of> > > 1949...I> > have a shot of
it with !
 absolutely immaculate paint taken in> > > November 1949.> > It didn't take
3 years for it to look less good! > > -----Original> > Message-----> From:
pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org>> >
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of > >
John>> > Swindler> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:21 PM> To:> >
pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn > > 832> > >
It> > was trucked to Charleroi, then operated as a fantrip from Charleroi >
> to>> > Ingram. The motorman was John Baxter. There was a photo stop at > >
Castle>> > Shannon.> > That 1949 picture is interesting for its implications
> > on the> > cars condition> at the end.> > John> > > > > > From: > >
mrb190 at pitt.edu> To:> > pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> Date: Tue, 25> Nov
2008 14:3!> > 6:57 -0500> Subject: [PRCo] West Penn 832> > Hello all,>>
Attached > > is a> > photo of West Penn 832 being trucked. This photo is
from the> Historic> > Pittsburgh website. The de!
 scription states:> Title: West Penn> > > Railways 832> > III> Date: No
vember 29, 1952> Creator: Fairbanks Jr., Frank B.>>> > Description: Moving
to Charleroi barn, Pittsburgh Railways.> > > Subjects:>> >
Transportation--Pennsylvania--Pittsburgh,> West Penn Railways.> > >
Identifier:>> > 411-832-03-9> Collection: Frank B. Fairbanks Rail
Transportation > > Archive,>> > Pittsburgh History & Landmarks>> >
Foundation<http://images.library.pitt.edu/f/fairbanks>> > Is this > >
accurate?>> > I thought that 832 went to Ingram Car House, and then moved
out > > under its>> > own power to Arden.> > Matt> > > > -- Attached file
removed by > > Ecartis and>> > put at URL below --> -- Type: image/jpeg> --
Desc: > > WestPenn832_trucked.jpg>>> > -- Size: 72k (74526 bytes)> -- URL :
http://lists.dementia.org/fil!>> >
es/pittsburgh-railways/WestPenn832_trucked.jpg> > >> > >
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