[PRCo] Re: Fwd: Streetcars All Over the World - Zurich (2)

[Schneider Fred]

Commonly, in Europe and with a lot of the new proof of payment  
systems in this country, tickets must be validated with the date and  
time of first use because you are typically paying for an amount of  
time today and not a fare from point A to point B.   It may be 90  
minutes or 120 minutes.   The ticket must show the starting date and  
time.   If you muy it on the car, those facts are usually imprinted  
on it.   Same normally applies to machines at the curb.   But if you  
buy a monthly or weekly or day ticket, they are often not canceled  
(validated) until the first time they are used.   Many transit  
undertakings will sell stacks of uncanceled tickets ... you validate  
each one when you begin use.

I have no encountered any European city with on-board fare collection  
in the last 30 years.   They have all been proof of payment systems  
with police officers or transit fare inspectors to control evasion.    
Now having said that, I will give you the exception.   Ten years ago  
I got the distinct impression that fare evasion was Holland's  
national sport.   Their federal government must have come to the same  
conclusion because about two years ago the bus drivers and motormen  
were again made responsible for collecting fares in that northern  
European country.   I didn't say they removed all the fare machines;  
I merely said the operators have been again made responsible.   That  
may only mean you now have to get on the front door and show your  
ticket to the operator.

You have to be tuned in to what is going on.   If you see a blank  
space on one end of the ticket, you can be pretty damn sure that a  
cancellation belongs there.   And if there are arrows on it  
indicating which way to put it into a printer with the words  
ENTWERTEN HIER (or whatver in another language), you better do it if  
you don't like paying the fine.   Instinct serves in any language.

Regarding joint and back pain ... once you have had open heart  
surgery, two stints installed, a couple of mild heart attacks, both  
carotid arteries opened, scraped and sewn shut again, you come to  
take life and all its joys and burdens at little differently than you  
did at age 18.   Simply being on the green side of the lawn is  
nice.   Walking into the Women's and Babies Hospital this week and  
seeing my granddaughter, her boy friend, their one year old daughter,  
and their 18-hour-old son all in the same room, and to be able to  
take a picture of all of them together with the little girl poking at  
the new baby brother, makes you simply delighted that you lived long  
enough to see two great grandchildren.   The hell, Bob, with all the  
aches and pains.

On the subject of food in Germany being good.   The Schneider rule is  
sort of like those Andrew Zimmern or Anthony Bourdain on the Travel  
Channel:  any country can have good food.   You may have to be  
willing to get used to something you've never eaten before, but the  
more strange and delightful things you do eat, the more things you  
find are not so strange.   This year I've spent two weeks in India  
and Nepal on tour watching the others on the tour try to find  
American or British style comfort foods on hotel buffets and they  
were equally astonished at me eating and loving Indian food (and  
Nepali) food for 14 days.    In Europe I suggest that the French have  
the best possible food anywhere on the continent and the Italians  
probably rank second.   But I was amazed at the Russians literally  
throwing away lachs (lox) on a buffet at breakfast when it would be  
$25 a pound here.  I've enjoyed picked whale blubber in Iceland.  I  
think my very last German meal was Turkish with a manager of German  
Rail last October.   There were a lot of Turkish guest workers in  
Germany in the 1960s and 1970s and they left a culture behind just  
like we find Vietnamese and Indian and Chinese restaurants all over  
the U. S. A. today.   One doesn't just go to Lisbon or Sintra or  
Porto to look at Brill semi-convertibles still plying the streets;  
one also goes for some great seafood dinners.   In the winter, melted  
cheese over boiled potatoes with sweet pickles can be a great Swiss  
farm dinner.

And it is still easy to get around Europe without an automobile.   It  
is easy simply because people live in cities.  If you want to go out  
in the country, then the only reason for a bus route is to go to  
another city.   Transit isn't something that is profitable there.   I  
doubt that it is anywhere in the world.   The Europeans subsidize  
transit out of taxes like we do.   But, if you choose to use it,  
transit can be used by 90-some percent of the public in Europe  
because they live near routes instead of in the middle of nowhere.

I am having trouble finding information to prove a point because it  
does not exist in form meaningful to you.   I wanted to prove that  
European cities are much more densely settled that our cities.  So I  
started by finding the City of Lancaster, Pennsylvania which is the  
101st largest in the USA and has a population density of about 7600  
perople per square mile, of which about 7000 per square mile live in  
the old core city.   And then I looked at the suburban township where  
I live and I found that 37000 people live in 24.2 square miles of  
1528 people per square mile.  Obviously when you have a city of  
55,000 people surrounded by 200,000 people in suburbs spread over the  
landscape at 1200 people per square mile, you can't provide  
meaningful public tranport services.

What I wanted to prove is that Europe can because the cities are much  
more congested.   But what I found out is that the numbers don't show  
that.   I started looking at Innsbruck, Austria, which is no bigger  
than Lancaster, Pennsylvania but has 117,916 people (to our 55,000)  
but the office land area is 40 square miles.   Probably 20% of those  
miles have people living on them.  The rest are mountains.   You  
don't, as a rule, build a housing development on a 45 to 50 degree  
slope where a landslide or a snowslide in the winter is going to take  
out your dwelling.   So the official numbers show about 3000 people  
per square mile.   But the developed area is probably more like  
20,000 people per square mile.   With that density, you can easily  
provide transit ... several city streetcar lines, two interurbans to  
he south and commuter trains to the east and west.

I was coming up with similar problems with Linz and Graz ... 5000  
people per square mile because the cities include farmland and little  
villages well beyond what we would consider the edge of the city.    
Linz has 189,000 people and Graz has 290,000 people.   Again, we are  
probably dealing with 20,000 people per square mile in the true core  
portion of the cities.   And once you leave town, you are in the  
countryside and not 10 or 15 or 20 miles of suburbs.

If I were to study Munich and compare it with Philadelphia.   SEPTA's  
commuter trains run from the suburbs.   We have rmiles and miles of  
asphalt roads serving to access 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and later  
homes.   The towns that were once in the country have vanished ...  
they are just older homes amid the newer ones.   But if I go to  
Munich, their commuter trains connect outlaying towns with Munich.   
In between all those towns is countryside ... cows and pigs and sheep  
graze there.   Some of the commuter trains come from as far away as  
Augsburg, another city that has trolleys.

DIFFERENT WAY OF LIFE.   WE DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND IT EITHER.

I was talking to a lawyer yesterday who was explaining to me the  
principal under which stockholders are allowed to sue and win if the  
officers of their company do not do everything possible to make money  
for them.  I used the example of petroleum companies lying to the  
public and the customers and the politicians about how much oil is  
left in the ground so they can sell every last drop and prevent  
government from stopping them from wasting it, and he said I was  
using a good example.   If they don't it, they can be found guilty of  
not representing the interests of the stockholders.

WITH THAT IN MIND, WILL WE EVEN SEE A RATIONAL WAY OF LIFE.





On Sep 18, 2008, at 8:47 PM, robert simpson wrote:

> Fred;
>
> Thank you for your information and for sharing your bittersweet  
> memories of your trip to Zurich.  My great-grandmother was born in  
> Switzerland but have little information about her family - it is a  
> work in progress.   Like you, I am finding joint and back pain are  
> becoming unwelcome "friends".  I have not yet tried the Glucosamine/ 
> Condroyton combination but am considering trying it for a few months.
>
> The picture mentioned will remain a mystery.  Perhaps someone may  
> recognize it.
>
> I, for one, absolutely have NO objection to postings about other  
> countries and seriously doubt that any true streetcar fan would.   
> We all have streetcars as a common interest - regardless of  
> location.  We mave have lively discussions about the relative  
> merits of one system over another but they are all a part of why  
> streetcars are interesting to us.
>
> As memtioned in previous posts, I lived in Frankfurt, Germany, for  
> a couple years in the late 1970's and remember how easy it was to  
> travel without owning an automobile.  An automobile was really not  
> needed,  Frankfurt had tour trams operating and had food that was  
> better than expected.  The pictures indicate they are still in  
> operation.  The busses, S-Bahn, and U-bahn coaches were always  
> clean and - most important - on time.  Never had to wait for a tram  
> - just planned ahead and left home in time to walk to the station  
> or stop just in time for the tram to arrive.  My first rides on the  
> German trams were filled with apprehension because I didn't  
> understand or speak German.  I learned to listen for the dreaded  
> word "Umsteigen" (spelling ? ) which I came to know meant that a  
> change in trains was necessary.  I simply followed the crowd and it  
> never caused a problem.
>
> Fred, you mentioned a "ticket validator" which is something I don't  
> remember.  I remember buying a ticket from the fare machine and  
> simply holding onto it until the end of the trip, and also remember  
> the "fare inspectors" who would occasionally go around asking to  
> see your ticket.  Does the ticket validator perform this function  
> by opening a gate which permits entry onto the tram like we have  
> here in the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART)?    On BART, a ticket is  
> purchased from a machine and then this ticket will open the gate  
> allowing access to the platform.  The ticket has a magnetic strip  
> which records how much money you deposited and will deduct from  
> this amount and update this on the strip.  If additional money is  
> needed, you are directed to the "Add Fare" machine in which you  
> insert your ticket and it calculates how much additional fare is  
> needed.  Sounds complicated but it really isn't.
>
> Thanks again, and please keep posting.
>
> Bob
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> --- On Thu, 9/18/08, Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Fwd: Streetcars All Over the World - Zurich (2)
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 3:38 PM
>
> Bob,
>
> I have no idea which funicular it is.   It isn't the Rigiblick (view
> of Rigi) Bahn (railway) because I've attached that.   And it isn't
> the Pilotbahn, because that's the last one in the column.   I'm not
> sure what it is unless the Japanese creator slipped in one of the
> hundreds of other alpine cog rails in the wrong place.
>
> The blue cars in Zurich are VBZ (Verkehrsbetriebe Zurich or City
> Operations Zurich).   The red cars are the Forchbahn, a suburban
> system that begins in the southeastern edge of the city of Zurich.
>
> Switzerland is one of those gorgeous places on the planet that you
> just die to go back to.   I have a particular near death story about
> Zurich of my own.   I had been in the country for several weeks.
> Arthritic joints in my back (lumber 3, 4, 5) had gotten so bad that I
> could barely move by the end of the trip.   Now I hate being gouged
> but I paid through the nose for a room in a five star hotel across
> the street from the train station just because of where it was.   And
> I stumbled in and stayed there for the last three days (at something
> like $300 a night for a single).   I fell out periodically to crawl
> two doors down to the Chinese restaurant for a meal and then back to
> the room.   The one cheery sight was going out on the street about
> 6:00 one evening and seeing the tour tram go by with the tables set
> for dinner ... snow falling ... every one dashing to the train
> station to go home.   It was like a US city 50 years before.
>
> Well, came my day to stumble across the street to the train station
> and catch a train to the airport to come home   Now that is the nice
> thing about Zurich ... a mainline train station in the basement of an
> international airport.
>
> When I walked out of the room, there was the concierge vacuuming the
> hall.   Now, you know Bob that the concierge's job is behind a desk
> in the lobby and not vacuuming on the third floor.   He saw me, the
> vacuum got pushed to the side.   He came running down the hall and
> grabbed my suitcases.  He man was obviously there to see that I got
> to the train station in one piece.   He walked me over to the
> station.  Stood beside me while I fed my money into a ticket vending
> machine and then put the ticket into a validator.   Then he carried
> my suitcases onto the coach.   When I pulled out my wallet to tip
> him, he refused it.   I tried to get the man to take the money.   He
> said, "helping you is my job.  I get a salary to do this."
>
> That man was probably the best salesman the chamber of commerce could
> ever ask for!
>
> The arthritis?   The back has since been opened and the joints
> scraped.   The knees have come from a factory somewhere in the U.
> S.   The shoulders have been opened and rebuilt.  Glucosamine
> Condroyton seems to keep the arthritis at bay.   I find I can walk up
> to six miles for dinner again.   For a while.
>
> And I hope some people do not object to my posting something from
> Europe once in a while.   I call it education.   I think we need to
> see how other people survive in this world with out as much fuel. I
> find it amazing that we are 3% of the world's population burning up
> 20% of the world's fuel.   Europeans burn more than their share too
> but no where near what we consume.    I've spent four years of my
> life over there, half living there and half vacationing.   I never
> cease to enjoy those nations that have cities and countryside instead
> of cities surrounded my miles and miles and miles of suburbs and
> traffic.
>
>
>
> http://www.skiresort.de/english/funicular.htm
>
> http://www.funimag.com/suisse/Funimag-Suisse.htm#zurich
>
> http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/funicular/Rigiblickbahn/pix.html
>
> http://www.stadlerrail.ch/index.php?page=233
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zürich
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 18, 2008, at 5:34 PM, robert simpson wrote:
>
>> Regarding pictures on link at bottom of page....
>>
>> Noted picture on Zurich (page 2) of a streetcar with a third rail.
>> What is the the reason for or the purpose of this third rail.  It
>> has on overhead power line.
>>
>> The pictures are fantastic!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Bob
>> From Krazy Kalifornia
>> where higher taxes are on the way and English is sometimes heard.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [PRCo] Fwd: Streetcars All Over the World
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org, "SCHNEIDER ALAN"
>> <alschneider2 at juno.com>, "Volkmer Bill"
> <bvolkmer at bellsouth.net>,
>> "McGuire Mark" <macmarka at netzero.net>
>> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 2:54 PM
>>
>> The URL below was sent to me by Bill Robb.   I think he didn't want
>> to take the heat for putting it on a Pittsburgh Railways address list
>> so I'll take the crap.   It is a worldwide file of of an amazing
>> assortment of about 6,000 streetcar pictures.  Go to the map and
>> click on the city, or the country and then the city that you want.
>> You can spend literally hours on this.
>>
>> While the list makes no pretense to have subways and heavy urban rail
>> systems or other fixed guideway lines, it might have been nice to
>> have such a file too.   If someone know of a similar worldwide file
>> of these other systems, I would be happy to be the recipient of a  
>> URL.
>>
>> In the U. S. A. for instance, we are missing San Juan (Puerto Rico),
>> Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston, Los Angeles, BART, Miami
>> and Chicago.   In Canada, Montreal and Toronto's subways are
>> missing.   And the people movers (ALRT, linear induction systems ...
>> all those odd things) are missing, such as Vancouver, Scarborough,
>> Miami,Jacksonville, Newark, New York, and all the capitve airport
>> systems. There is also one in Texas that is missing.
>>
>> There are some things missing from this ... Charlotte's new light
>> rail is missing.   Some of the San Diego lines are missing.   But I
>> commend them for the monumental task that they did do.
>>
>> Now don't neglect to go to Switzerland and click on Zurich ... there
>> is a real nice night time picture of a couple kissing on
>> Bahnhofstrasse with a trolley in the distance and behind it the main
>> train station.   They guy taking some of this stuff did have an eye
>> for a picture.
>>
>> And if you are like me, it's a blast just looking at these to find
>> all the places you've been.
>>
>> Enjoy, guys.
>>
>> http://www.shugotram.jp/twrldmap/twrldmae.html
>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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