[PRCo] Re: Changed to Years Make a Difference

Tue Jun 9 08:40:04 EDT 2009

And I still recall Harold Geissenheimer suggesting that I should help out a couple guys in Lancaster County with a certain magazine, and one of the editors on Delp Road had a step-daughter around 6-8 years old. 

I also recall Frank Goldsmith lamenting that 'it just wasn't the same anymore after the abandonment of the Connecticut Co. rural trolley lines.'  

And I also recall the shock over some early e-mails with Derrick concerning riding the east end streetcar lines, and Derrick mentioned that his dad remembers riding them.  I instantly aged a couple decades.  I was assuming that the recollections Derrick was recounting were his own.

As for things missed, I had read Jack May's account of light rail developments in The Hague and Rotterdam during the 1960s, and visited both in 1968.  That was also the trip that I rode the Walsall trackless lines two weeks before their demise and the 1938 stock on the Northern Line.  (Fred would understand).  And the following year got to Brussels and their initial pre-metro lines.  But I didn't know about the Vicinal network in the Hainaut area.  Just the Vicinal would have been worth several overseas trips during the 1970s.  

As Fred and Howard White observed, people like what they know, and the U.S. railfans had yet to discover Europe.  At least in sufficient numbers for editors to devote news coverage.  That may account for some of the distain occasionally encountered concerning 'things new'.  Then again, for such an unusual hobby, it is surprising how much specialization exists.

As for new things, have you checked out the new trackless trolleys on SEPTA routes 66, 75 and 59?  If you wait long enough, it seems that most things are 're-discovered'.  They are low floor "all service vehicles".  The express wires are still used on 66.

Cheers

John

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Subject: [PRCo] Changed to Years Make a Difference
> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:44:34 -0400
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> 
> Yes, John, a few years make a lot of difference. On my recent trip 
> west I stopped in Los Angeles and in Charlottesville to see two friends.
> 
> In April, 1963 I met two very good friends for the first time: 
> Donald N. Duke and William D. Middleton. Don is now 80 and Bill 
> ihas turned 81. Bill just lost his wife of 53 years in April. I 
> can remember when she was young and there were two little boys 
> running around the house. Now the oldest of those boys is a tenured 
> professor of anthropology at Rochester Institute of Technology. 
> Let's see, Bill is 12 years older than me and Don is 11 years older.
> 
> Don remembers Los Angeles during World War II ... sow bellies. 
> Wooden standards. Brand new PCCs. He would have been nine when 
> Shirley Temple chistened the first PCC. Long trains of wooden cars 
> on Pacific Electric. He photographed Birney cars in Fort Collins 
> when he went to college. Don 's mom supervised the movie studio 
> schools ... he knew a lot of the child actors ... he actually has a 
> picture of himself playing with a little girl named Shirley Temple in 
> her parents' home.
> 
> Bill claims he courted Dorothy on the North Shore. He photographed 
> things I missed in my own area like the LIberty Bell Route. That 
> man got things everywhere that I missed from Bamberger to Fort Dodge, 
> from Milwaukee Electric to Waterloo, Iowa. He has some fabulous 
> early 1950s stuff on Pacific Electric because he was working in Los 
> Angeles then.
> 
> But you know John and those of your who are younger than most ... you 
> have a marvelous opportunity that Don and Bill and the old timers 
> will not have. The industry is being revitalized. The number of 
> United States and Canadian cities with trolley lines and subways 
> dropped to an all-time low of ten in the 1960s. Phoenix was the 
> 58th city when it opened just after Christmas 2008. They're moving 
> 30,000 passengers a day now! When Savannah's River Street line 
> opened in February, the number reached 59 different cities. Norfolk 
> should be the 60th when opens. Portland has announced that the 
> Clackimus line will open on September 12th.
> 
> The guys who introduced me and most of us to this hobby had a 
> difficult time getting to all the lines before the shut down. We 
> just could not get to all of them as fast as they were being 
> abandoned. I missed a lot after I became a "railfan." And even 
> after I came of legal age, I never got to Los Angeles before what Ira 
> Swett called Die Day.
> 
> But the biggest problem I'm having today is getting to all the new 
> ones as they open. What a fabulous problem. I still haven't 
> gotten to see the SLUT line in Seattle. And there was that tourist 
> line in Galveston that ran for while until Hurricane Camille ... I 
> saw the cars are sitting at barn in April ... doesn't look like 
> they've run since the storm. I missed that. There are about a 
> half dozen new lines in France that I have not gotten too ... Guess I 
> need a few good French dinners too. And Phil Craig showed me some 
> great videos of a new light rail line in Porto, Portugal ... hell, 
> all I have seen there is are those old Brill semi-convertibles. I'm 
> told I also need to look at what Spain is doing. And Kolkata (the 
> Brits called it Calcutta) has some new trams with glass windows up 
> into the roof. I've got to get back to India. So much new stuff to 
> see and so little time.
> 
> Think about it ...
> 
> Could we be living at better time?
> 
> Perfesser Fred
> 
> 
> 
> On May 31, 2009, at 11:09 AM, John Swindler wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Fred and I have often discussed the difference that seven years 
> > makes. He has memories of low floor cars in Pittsburgh; my 
> > memories are of PCCs. I remember only 8 and 15 in Baltimore; 
> > Fred has a longer list. And the list goes on. But there are some 
> > 'impressions' from earlier years.
> >
> >
> >
> > One impression is that there were four movie theaters in 
> > Wilkinsburg. Memories start with a theater across from the Rowland 
> > on Wood St. being boarded up. There is also an impression of 
> > passsing a streetcar on what would have been the Laketon Rd. 
> > terminal, but I was only about 5-6 at the time. And there were 
> > three stores that carried model trains in Wilkinsburg. Sol's on 
> > Penn, a hobby store on Wood and what seemed like a key maker on 
> > Rebecca. I bought my last Lionel there around 12 with 'paperboy' 
> > earnings: a green Rock Island box car. But that falls into the 
> > 'memory' rather than 'impression' category.
> >
> >
> >
> > As for being 'let loose', that around my 13th birthday in summer 
> > 1959 when parents allowed me to start Sunday/Holiday pass riding. 
> > First time was 64 to Oakland, then 77/54 to northside, then 18 
> > towards Woods Run, then everything after kind of merges together. 
> > Delivering the Post Gazette paid for some 620 film and helped this 
> > to become a frequent warm weather weekend ritual for next several 
> > years. In retrospect, I would have taken more photos, not 
> > concentrated so much on Library and Drake, and asked a lot more 
> > questions. But hey, I was just a kid.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > p.s. our barber was on Coal St. near Jane St. terminal of 76 
> > Hamilton. Cost was $1 during early 60s.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> CC: shaney7366 at aol.com
> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Verona Road at Frankstown 1936
> >> Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:26:54 -0400
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>
> >> You should never say Thanks for the Memories because some damn fool
> >> might just add more to it.
> >>
> >> I remember being told that after World War II, the two fastest
> >> growing municipalities in Pennsylvania were Levittown, Bucks County
> >> and Penn Hills Township, Allegheny County. But much of that came
> >> after I left.
> >>
> >> My parents remembered Deere Brothers running school buses from
> >> Universal to Pittsburgh and Wilkinsburg via Frankstown Road. I
> >> remember in 1955 that he had escalated up to 35 foot air-ride GM
> >> diesels and Mr. Deere, as my mother called him, was one of a handful
> >> of profitable carriers that actually fought inclusion into the Port
> >> Authority. He was making money for the same reason that Merrit
> >> Taylor was churning over dollars in Delaware and Chester Counties
> >> with his buses and trolleys .... location, location, location.
> >>
> >> But what is a suburb. It is nothing more than the next ring beyond
> >> the urban core that we are now filling up. At least that is a
> >> definition that works for me. In the aughts, teens and twenties
> >> there were trolley suburbs within the city of Pittsburgh.
> >>
> >> Penn Hills was simply the suburb of my youth. Dad had a aerial
> >> photograph of Crescent Hills, where we lived, that Meadow Gold dairy
> >> was giving away. About one out of every four lots was filled so it
> >> must have been exposed in the very late 1930s.
> >>
> >> There were no major stores out there. At the top of Crescent Hills
> >> Drive on Frankstown Road, there was a small frame convenience
> >> store ... the 7/11 or Turkey Hill or Get and Go of its era. Seems
> >> to me it had a soda fountain in one end. Eastwood was the nearest
> >> major grocery store.
> >>
> >> Wilkinsburg was vibrant. If we went out to dinner on Saturday
> >> night, Wilkinsburg was the place to go.
> >>
> >> Doctors made house calls. But he also stayed in his office until he
> >> had seen the last patient in much the same manner that barbers
> >> work. You go, sit in the waiting room, and when he gets to you, you
> >> see him. Our family doctor's office was on the main drag in
> >> Swissvale. Now remember that this was before the era of two, three
> >> or four car families. Mom never drove a car. So if it was my
> >> mother who had to visit the doctor or my sister, then dad had to
> >> driver her there. Then he had the problem of entertaining me for an
> >> hour or two. Well, my father was sort of a closet railfan. Not as
> >> nuts as me though he did makes some models in OO gauge and he was
> >> charter subscriber to Model Railroader. So, when they were in the
> >> doctor's office, dad would introduce me to sitting along the PRR in
> >> Edgewood or Swissvale or up on the high level platforms in
> >> Wilkinsburg. I remember getting scared of a fast moving train and
> >> running into the enclosed platform shelter. I guess all kids do
> >> that at age 6 or 7. I also remember him parking and killing time
> >> along Ardmore Blvd. in Forest Hills one night. I wonder if that
> >> helped to spawn an interest in trolleys? It might be or it could
> >> also be his tale of being overtaken as be a fast moving Ohio Electric
> >> car as he drove his aunt's 1925 Chevy (that was pre Govm't Motors
> >> car) along the National Pike.
> >>
> >> You want a haircut? For a while dad frequented a barber in Oakmont
> >> until he found Charlie in East Liberty. Rather strange isn't
> >> that ... fits right in with the commercial, "Get Wildroot Cream Oil,
> >> Charlie." I used to assemble Strombecker wooden models that I
> >> acquired in a model store on Penn Avenue in East Liberty. Seems to
> >> me that East Liberty might have had seven movie palaces at that
> >> time. I remember going there once to see something.
> >>
> >> What about the Miracle Mile in Monroeville or the shops on Rodi Road
> >> just off Frankstown? They were built after we moved out in 1949.
> >> Monroeville was where you went on Sunday to milk from a farmer if you
> >> ran out. The other option was the man who ran Stoner's Dairy on the
> >> hill between Coal Hollow Road and Lime Hollow Road. Rodi Road?
> >> That's where the old Morrow School was ... one of those classic eight
> >> room yellow brick schools. I went there for first and second grade.
> >>
> >> It was all country out there up until we moved out in 1949.
> >>
> >> Yes, I can remember when the Parkway East and West were built. I
> >> can also remember that you drove out old route 30 to get to the
> >> turnpike at Irwin.
> >>
> >> But John Swindler would have to tell you about West Penn. My only
> >> memory of that was conning my dad into letting me ride 289 for a few
> >> blocks in Jeannette just after I turned 12 and a few months before it
> >> quit. It was a Saturday morning and the car had a full seated
> >> load. But apparently there were not enough passengers at all hours.
> >>
> >> In was the next year that I finally managed to break away. We were
> >> in Pittsburgh for the obligatory Easter vacation week at grandma's
> >> home. Dad had given me enough money to buy two interurban zone fare
> >> books. I rode to Roscoe and Washington on my own. Come summer we
> >> were on vacation in Montreal. Dad was asked to solve a corporate
> >> problem between his plant in Lancaster and the Armstrong Cork plant
> >> in Montreal. (He never did get that day back.) Mom took us on the
> >> sightseeing tour car around Montreal thinking that would get trolleys
> >> out of this 13-year-old's system. Was she ever in for a rude
> >> awakening. By lunch time she apparently tired of my wining and told
> >> me to "be gone" but I had to be back a intersection on Rue Ste.
> >> Catherine at 5:00 that afternoon. I took off like wild for the
> >> Montreal and Southern Counties. When I got back she wasn't there.
> >> Mom was almost a half hour late. I took having my own children to
> >> realize that sometimes it is better to be late yourself than be on
> >> time and risk worrying about where your children are. I had one
> >> more trolley ride on that trip and that was on a former wooden New
> >> York or Staten Island trailer on the Quebec Railway for the eight
> >> miles from Montmorency Falls into Quebec. That was one of hell of
> >> a ride.
> >>
> >> Funny thing about growing up. In your youth you tend to have tunnel
> >> vision. I've spent a lot of money in my later years seeing all
> >> those places that I didn't want to see when my parents were dragging
> >> me around on family vacations because the trains and trolleys were
> >> all important then.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 29, 2009, at 9:59 AM, Barry, Matthew R wrote:
> >>
> >>> Great memories! Thank you for sharing!
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> >>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> >>> Schneider Fred
> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:30 PM
> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Verona Road at Frankstown 1936
> >>>
> >>> Correct. Brain is at low energy state Art.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On May 28, 2009, at 7:43 PM, ArtS32 at aol.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't think it was Rosedale, I believe this was Eastwood.
> >>>>
> >>>> Art Swartz
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In a message dated 5/28/2009 6:25:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> >>>> fwschneider at comcast.net writes:
> >>>> Amazing. Simply amazing.
> >>>> I am sending this to my sister as well. She might enjoy clicking on
> >>>> the link which should appear in red when she gets it.
> >>>>
> >>>> We grew up in Penn Township, later Penn Hills. Well, I spent nine
> >>>> years there and she was there for the first three and half years.
> >>>> She moved back and is living off Penn Avenue above Wilkinsburg,
> >>>> perhaps no more than 2 miles from the location of the photo in the
> >>>> link.
> >>>>
> >>>> I was born three years after the Hulton - Oakmont - Verona -
> >>>> Wilkinsburg trolley line was removed. All that I can remember is
> >>>> remnant of the line, i.e. Laketon Road shuttle. I can vividly
> >>>> recall a day in 1949 when my sister tried jumping off the foot 
> >>>> board
> >>>> of my parent's bed head first on to the floor instead the mattress.
> >>>> I spent several hours waiting in the car of a family friend parked
> >>>> outside a hospital or doctor's office in Wilkinsburg. The shuttle
> >>>> car went by many times and that was the day I remember 
> >>>> observing, at
> >>>> age 8, that Pittsburgh Low-Floor cars had arch bar trucks. My
> >>>> sister, by the way, did suffer a fractured skull from her sky 
> >>>> diving
> >>>> attempt and spent quite a bit of time in a hospital that year.
> >>>>
> >>>> But back to the picture below. I don't have a map here. Was that
> >>>> neighborhood not known as Rosedale? I remember that there was a
> >>>> food store there, perhaps a Krogers or an A&P where we did most of
> >>>> grocery shopping. It was situated on the south side of Frankstown
> >>>> just to the east of Verona. I suspect that the photographer was
> >>>> standing almost in front of the grocery store. Sometime after
> >>>> World
> >>>> War II they offered a promotional gimmick that I suspect management
> >>>> figured would not cost them anything. If you can bring in the cover
> >>>> from the first issue (vol. 1 no. 1) of Life magazine, you will 
> >>>> get a
> >>>> week's worth of groceries free. That was probably about a $5.00
> >>>> value at that time. Maybe a little more. My father marched in
> >>>> with the magazine.
> >>>>
> >>>> Does that suggest that being a pack rat runs in the family? The run
> >>>> of Life magazines was finally destroyed about 1962. I think it was
> >>>> helping to cause the center of the house to sink and pull ends away
> >>>> from what was becoming a free standing chimney.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks Matt for forwarding it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Fred Schneider
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On May 26, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Barry, Matthew R wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I have only ever seen a photograph of a streetcar with a VERONA
> >>>>> destination sign, and also, a photograph of the trestle that once
> >>>>> crossed over Coal Hollow Road at Verona Road, but no other 
> >>>>> pictures
> >>>>> that documented trackage somewhere on the line. Taken in 1936, I
> >>>>> imagine the cars were still running over this trackage since the
> >>>>> line wasn't abandoned until the following year - I think 
> >>>>> cutback to
> >>>>> Laketon Road. The photo is from the Historic Pittsburgh site, and
> >>>>> here is the description:
> >>>>> Title: Atlantic White Flash
> >>>>> Date: October 6, 1936
> >>>>> Creator: Pittsburgh City Photographer
> >>>>> Description: An Auto Shop and Barber Shop at the intersection of
> >>>>> Verona Road and Frankstown Avenue. Looking west from Verona Road.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Matt
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> >>>>> -- Type: image/jpeg
> >>>>> -- Desc: verona_frankstown_Oct1936.jpg
> >>>>> -- Size: 64k (66521 bytes)
> >>>>> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/ 
> >>>>> verona_frankstown_Oct1936.jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>> cntnew00000007)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
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