[PRCo] Re: Changed to Years Make a Difference
BobDietrich
bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net
Wed Jun 10 20:14:50 EDT 2009
No, the smile means I know where the delete key is located. (.)(.)
I did read it all though and enjoyed the professional video.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
Schneider Fred
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:53 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Changed to Years Make a Difference
Does the smile mean you want a long diatribe?
British Railways took delivery of their last steam locomotive, a
2-10-0 named the Evening Star in 1958. My first visit to Britain
was in 1959. I think the end of steam was 1966 except for the
numerous preservation railways. In 1960, when I made a long sweep
around the country, many of the branch line passenger traines were
diesel cars. Much of the Western Region and the south was
electrified with third rail and there was some DC overhead traction
in the Midlands, which I think has since been removed. And wires
were being strung at that time for the electrification of the Glasgow
commuter service. There were some ongoing experiments with mainline
diesel traction such as the Deltics which were running on the East
Coast Mainline...there may have only been one unit ... John would
know. Everything else was still steam! Steam was everywhere.
At a tank stop on the West Highland Mainline somewhere north of
Glasgow I asked the driver if there might a chance I could sneak a
ride on the footplate. His response was, "Why not. There are never
any inspectors up. Come on up lad." And that, Bob, was the first
time I ever picked up a coal scoop. It also holds me in a position
of rather lofty reverence with the British fans because cab rides are
were virtually impossible to obtain. I have the color slides to
prove it.
John mentioned a survey we ran when I was one of the co-editors of
Headlights. We determined that our readers were unable to
articulate what they wanted in the magazine. But we also determined
that they essentially liked news about where they had been and didn't
care a twit about things they had never seen. And if they had been
there under duress, they particularly didn't like the subject. The
least popular issue we published during our tenure was the one on the
opening of the Seoul, Koreal, probably because of the large number of
members who were stuck there in the early 1950s in a war.
Well, John and I like Britain because it has fond memories. In his
case he went there to see grandma just as I went to Pittsburgh to see
grandma. And I went there on leave from the army because I had been
introduced to it in my high school years by an older man for whom I
did photo processing work. So, for us, it is like going back home.
One of the sweetest memories for me was the end of that long train
ride from London Euston on the down train to Scotland (all trains run
up to the capital and down from it). I spent quite a bit of time in
Glasgow at the NRHS Hotel. You see a man names James B. Aird and
his lovely wife Mattie had lived in Media, Pennsylvania after World
War II because North British Locomotive Works had more work than they
could handle and some of it was subcontracted to Baldwin in
Philadelphia. Jim, who worked for them, was sent to the USA to
supervise a job. I think it might have been an export order for
India. He became an NRHS Philadelphia Chapter member. After he
moved back to Glasgow, his home became nicknamed the NRHS Hotel of
Glasgow because of all the Americans he and Mattie hosted.
(Fortunately, I was later able to have his widow in my home in
Lancaster years later.)
That was when I got my first lesson in how they we different from us
or we from them. Jim and Mattie never had a refrigerator. The
weather was cool enough in Glasgow that you did there what you did
here in the 1920s and earlier ... they shopped at the corner store
every day for perishables. Each room had a coal stove to warm the
house. They heated the rooms they needed. No need to be
extravagant. Even though they lived in Glasgow's suburbs, there was
train and bus service downtown ... they had no automobile. Wasn't
needed. I also fondly remember going to church with them on Sunday
morning. I was raised a Presbyterian. That happens to be the
Church of Scotland. But we were taught that you walk in and
reverently sit and keep your mouth closed. Any socializing was done
on the street out front afterwards. But in Glasgow everyone walked
in and chatted with their friends until the minister walked up front
and pounded a hammer on the lectern to get their attention, then the
service began. It was my first real trip away from home and dealing
with another culture. The first of many. I highly recommend such
an experience to anyone because that is how you learn to know your
neighbors including those in other nations.
Glasgow's huge tram network was down to just three routes in 1960.
Several lines had been abandoned several months before I got there.
Most of the old Standard cars were gone. What were left were the
Cunarders and some of the former Liverpool cars. It was a fabulous
experience riding them around town. That was a city very much like
Pittsburgh. Grimy. Dirty. It was a steel and ship building city
on the Clyde River. Like Pittsburgh, everything was buried under a
layer of black dirt. But unlike Pittsburgh, even in its last days,
the remaining trams were clean and painted ... bright in orange,
cream and green. And it was different experience to ride the upper
deck.
The first link below is a professional film done for the abandonment
of the last Glasgow tram ... sharp ... very well done. The other
two are the usually unsharp, 8mm amateur color stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO2DmTnXlDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuIVabDdbWU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yDSy0oMu9g&feature=related
At that time Glasgow still rostered two unusual cars. Number 1100
had General Electric Pneumatic Cam control as an experiment. It ran
only in rush hours. And I got to ride it with an all female crew
left over from World War II. I left the barn with them. I've got
the picture of them posed with the car at the end of the line.
The other odd-ball was the one single truck car. And it was a fast
bugger. Probably 35 mph when everything else would do 25. I went to
the car house foreman and asked if it might be possible to get 1089
pulled out for a picture. "Why certainly." So he assigned a man
to do it. We got on the car. He pulled it out but he didn't
stop. In typical Scottish hospitality, he remarked, "No sun in the
alley. We have to find sun and a good background. Three miles
later at a crossover at Glasgow University he decided the background
and the sun was correct for a picture of 1089.
Jim Aird once descript a Scot (Scotch is a drink, by the way. The
person is a Scot) thusly: "If you ask a Scot directions he will tell
you how to get there. Then he will think of a better way and tell
you that. Then he will decide he has you confused you. He will
put down his tools and he will lead you there." I have seen that
personality trait played out countless times. A Scot is simply one
of the most hospitable people on the face of the earth.
The same day that I got the foot plate ride I tore my seam in my
pants. After setting my tent for the night in Fort Williams,
Scotland. I looked for a house with lights. I knocked on the
nearest door to ask if I might borrow a needle and thread. Remember
guys, when you're 20 you have a lot larger balls than when you're 70
and they are often brass plated. It took me another ten minutes to
convince the lady that she didn't have to sew my pants for me and
also cook dinner for me. She absolutely wanted to do that.
My wife will remember checking into a bed and breakfast in Girvin,
Scotland where the owner said, "My dear, you look like you have had a
rough day. Before anything else, you must have a cup of tea. And
she proceeded to put on the tea. Before we were allowed to bring in
the luggage or even climb the stairs to the room, we had to relax and
have tea. I don't know what they talked about but after I went to
bed, my wife and that woman sat up late and watched the telly.
If I had to recommend a first foreign tour to another continent to
someone who had never been outside the USA and Canada and was afraid
of travel, I would probably suggest one week in London and another
week in the English countryside just because of the language
similarities. If you have a few extra days on that first tour and
are brave, I might throw in a few days by train to Paris and back.
But guys, it would be really hard not to say that Scotland should be
the first choice just because the people are so nice ... so laid back.
A two or three week vacation in Scotland can be like a vacation in
Maine but with a different culture ... with castles such as the
ancestral home of Queen Betty and Stirling Castle (John's favorite),
Edinburgh Castle (the one that gets all the tourist dollars) ... with
the Firth of Forth of Bridge ... there's a fair transportation museum
in Glasgow with cars, engines, ship models (can't get the Queen Mary
in the building).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCwqYGyVSv4&feature=related
On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:55 AM, BobDietrich wrote:
> Fred, on your first trip to London they were probably still running
> steam in
> regular service... :-)
>
> Missed you at the EPTC Meet.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Schneider Fred
> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 8:23 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Changed to Years Make a Difference
>
> On my first trip to London, I knew I wasn't in Pittsburgh when I got
> to Rickmansworth and they took the electric locomotive off the
> Metropolitan division underground train and put an 1896-vintage steam
> tank engine up front. You can see one of the steam engines in the
> London Transport Museum at Covent Garden ... same place where the
> flower market used to be from the play and movie My Fair Lady.
>
> Wasn't there an old radio show called Can You Top This?
>
> That was long before they extended the Picadilly tube to Heathrow
> Airport.
>
> By the, for comparison, the most the ran into places like Grand
> Central in New York were around one-third the volume John is talking
> about at Clapham Junction. That sounds like taking the Long Island
> at Jamaica and mixing it up with the throat of Grand Central. Then
> you get the picture. At that, gentlemen, only represents two
> stations on the southside of London. There are six more stations
> that I can think of in the central part of city! Three alone
> (King's Cross, Euston and St. Pancras) served trains going to the
> north. One from trains to the east. One for trains the west. And
> another (Charing Cross) for the south.
>
> After you've seen places like London and Paris, it's hard to worked
> up over Penn Station in New York.
>
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:05 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's see if Derrick's software will allow an old pre-grouping
>> diagram of Clapham Jct.
>>
>>
>>
>> About 2,000 trains per day pass through Clapham Jct., with most
>> stopping. During peak hours, there are about 180 trains per hour.
>> Good luck finding anything near this level of service on this
>> continent.
>>
>>
>>
>> Most trains are 8-12 car consists of electric multiple unit cars.
>> And, at least in years past, most made the "right sounds".
>>
>>
>>
>> On my first trip, I realized that I was no longer in Pittsburgh
>> when I saw 5 trains per hour scheduled on the Victoria-Brighton
>> line during off peak hours.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Changed to Years Make a Difference
>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:28:36 -0400
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>
>>> Half of todays riders are on the trolleys ... I've been told that
>>> tourism has been retained in spite of the loss in population. I'm
>>> not sure who is waiting tables. I doubt that the maids and
>>> dishwashers are driving all the way from Shreveport every day. But
>>> there was a period when the transit operators were.
>>>
>>> Regarding Clapham Junction ... Amen to that brother Swindler. To
>>> the uninitiated, it is where two former railroads prior to
>>> unification into British Railways, one out of Victoria Station and
>>> the other running out of Waterloo station crossed in southwest
>>> London. It is a very nondescript neighborhood, analogues to going
>>> to Harlem or Chicago's deep south side for a picnic. But you can
>>> stand there for an hour and there will never been a minute when
>>> there
>>> is not a train in sight. And it's third rail ... something OSHA and
>>> any politician would cringe about in this country today.
>>>
>>> There are some other places in the world that are impressive too.
>>> Try the central railroad subway in Müchen in Deutschland (Munich,
>>> Germany for those who must Anglicize) which is similar to
>>> Philadelphia's Center City Commuter Tunnel except that the trains
>>> don't creep along at 30 mph. The go bombing through that bore at 80
>>> km/hr on 2 minute headways. As fast as signal blocks clear, there
>>> is another train.
>>>
>>> I would like to go back to Berlin again and see what has changed
>>> since unification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_S-Bahn
>>> The divided city that I first experienced in the late 1980s had the
>>> Eastern authorities running the entire commuter railroad (S-Bahn or
>>> Schnell-Bahn) network for both east and west cities. Crews could
>>> ride through but passengers had to get off at Frederichstrasse
>>> and go
>>> through immigration procedures. The subway or (U-Bahn or
>>> Untergrundbahn) was run by the both cities but some of the western
>>> routes ran through the east and back into the west without opening
>>> doors at stations that had been closed. Now the countries largest
>>> city is one again. The S-bahn alone moves over a million people a
>>> day. A brand new terminal has been erect in what had been East
>>> Berlin for intracontintal trains. The ring S-bahn has been opened.
>>> The secret subway routes are not public knowledge again. But I'm
>>> still glad I saw the old S-Bahn before it was modernized. As John
>>> Swindler would say. Those cars that were left over from the 1920s
>>> and 1930s "made all the right sounds."
>>>
>>> And one last jab ... I just something on the disHistory Channel. A
>>> piece on Dublin, Ireland. Showed one of their new light rail
>>> cars. I'd forgotten that is another place I need to get back to.
>>> And they speak English there too ... or something resembling
>>> "American-speak." What do Ireland and Mexico have in common?
>>> There are more of their people in the USA than at home. :<)
>>> (Actually it is true of Ireland. What is true about Mexico is that
>>> there more Spanish speak people living in the USA than the entire
>>> population of Mexico.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:07 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some recent notes on New Orleans:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The transit system has gone from a 400 bus operation to a 100 bus
>>>> operation. Half of today's riders are on the St. Charles, Canal
>>>> and Riverfront trolley lines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Four possible extensions have been mentioned: North Rampert St;
>>>> St. Claude Ave; Loyola Ave. and Convention Center Blvd. None seem
>>>> to be very long, and all have positive and negative aspects.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And as for Britain, every electric railfan should spend a rush hour
>>>> at Clapham Junction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Changed to Years Make a Difference
>>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:13:23 -0400
>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>
>>>>> John and I frequently speak British to each other. Yes, John, I
>>>>> remember the 1938 Tube stock on the Underground. Rode London
>>>>> Transport first in 1959 and again in 1960. We sometimes amaze each
>>>>> other with our mutual understanding of expressions like Merchant
>>>>> Navy
>>>>> Class and Black 5s. Of course John, by birth, is half English. He
>>>>> has cousins all over England. I'll never forget his John's mom's
>>>>> funeral ... it was hosted by a group of English ladies in the
>>>>> church
>>>>> in Mount Lebanon and it was like going back to Britain ... right
>>>>> down
>>>>> to the cucumber sandwiches at the reception. OK, so its an
>>>>> acquired
>>>>> taste like Haggis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, Sir, have not seen the new trackless vehicles in northeast
>>>>> Philthydelphia. That city is too close to home. You know that I
>>>>> would go to London to see a play before I would go to Philly to
>>>>> ride
>>>>> SEPTA. Actually they are on the "to-do" list. Like I said
>>>>> before. Can't keep up with it all.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that heart surgery next week is going to keep me laying low
>>>>> for a
>>>>> few months this summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I still maintain that there all sorts of wonderful new
>>>>> developments taking place in transit fixed guideway transit in
>>>>> this
>>>>> world ... too many to keep up but we owe it to our selves to try
>>>>> and
>>>>> see what is happening.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, I was amazed that Phoenix was hauling over 20,000
>>>>> people a
>>>>> day a few months after the opened. By the time I got there in
>>>>> April
>>>>> I was counting bodies on the cars and coming with my own counts
>>>>> around 25,000 a day. At the end of the spring the agency claims
>>>>> they are up to 30,000 a day on a 20 mile light rail line. At
>>>>> 20,000
>>>>> they were running 85 to 105 % of capacity and now I hear that they
>>>>> are cutting back from two cars to singles because of a budget
>>>>> crunch. Scary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's Wikipedia's link to Phoenix:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_Light_Rail_(Phoenix)
>>>>>
>>>>> And if you want to look at you tube videos of Phoenix, this like
>>>>> will
>>>>> pull up one and many related ones....
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvagOo_9Gts&feature=related
>>>>>
>>>>> And Tucson looks like they are going to take the railfan's
>>>>> heritage
>>>>> line and turn it into a full fledged urban trolley line
>>>>> connecting a
>>>>> teaching hospital and university with downtown and a convention
>>>>> center. Will they be using FTA funding? No. They've found how
>>>>> to tap into environmental funding.
>>>>>
>>>>> And when I stopped in Charlotte I wanted to replicate a picture
>>>>> I had
>>>>> taken when it was a heritage line run by the railfans. I had this
>>>>> great scene with the old Charlotte trolley and the city skyline
>>>>> behind it and now I wanted to get one of the new light rail
>>>>> cars in
>>>>> the same spot. I could not do it because the real estate
>>>>> developers
>>>>> have filled the area with new apartments because the light rail
>>>>> has
>>>>> made getting downtown so convenient. Lynx in Charlotte actually
>>>>> doubled the entire system patronage when it opened ... the light
>>>>> rail
>>>>> riding equaled everyone that previously was riding all the bus
>>>>> routes
>>>>> in the city.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BXSt3oaTY
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure you can go back to New Orleans. I did it this spring. The
>>>>> red cars are back on Canal and the green cars are on St. Charles.
>>>>> The headways are a lot worse because 35% of population never came
>>>>> back after the flood. They have new jobs, new schools, new
>>>>> churches, new homes, new communities. East of Canal along streets
>>>>> like Desire and Elysian Fields about half the homes are boarded
>>>>> up.
>>>>> I predict that they will be torn down. But the future isn't the
>>>>> Perley Thomas cars in New Orleans, is in the growth cities in the
>>>>> west.
>>>>>
>>>>> Portland, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco,
>>>>> Sacramento,
>>>>> Denver, Houston, Dallas, Minneapolis. And you should even look at
>>>>> San Jose to see one that doesn't work well.
>>>>>
>>>>> And go north and look at Calgary and Edmonton and what
>>>>> Vancouver is
>>>>> doing ... trolley buses, linear induction and I think light
>>>>> rail on
>>>>> the newest line. And there is that charming little former
>>>>> Cleveland
>>>>> car running through the Wal*Mart parking lot in Nelson, BC. By
>>>>> the way, the most recent extension in Calgary is powered by a wind
>>>>> farm.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:40 AM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I still recall Harold Geissenheimer suggesting that I should
>>>>>> help out a couple guys in Lancaster County with a certain
>>>>>> magazine,
>>>>>> and one of the editors on Delp Road had a step-daughter around
>>>>>> 6-8
>>>>>> years old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also recall Frank Goldsmith lamenting that 'it just wasn't the
>>>>>> same anymore after the abandonment of the Connecticut Co. rural
>>>>>> trolley lines.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I also recall the shock over some early e-mails with Derrick
>>>>>> concerning riding the east end streetcar lines, and Derrick
>>>>>> mentioned that his dad remembers riding them. I instantly aged a
>>>>>> couple decades. I was assuming that the recollections Derrick was
>>>>>> recounting were his own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for things missed, I had read Jack May's account of light rail
>>>>>> developments in The Hague and Rotterdam during the 1960s, and
>>>>>> visited both in 1968. That was also the trip that I rode the
>>>>>> Walsall trackless lines two weeks before their demise and the
>>>>>> 1938
>>>>>> stock on the Northern Line. (Fred would understand). And the
>>>>>> following year got to Brussels and their initial pre-metro lines.
>>>>>> But I didn't know about the Vicinal network in the Hainaut area.
>>>>>> Just the Vicinal would have been worth several overseas trips
>>>>>> during the 1970s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Fred and Howard White observed, people like what they know,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the U.S. railfans had yet to discover Europe. At least in
>>>>>> sufficient numbers for editors to devote news coverage. That may
>>>>>> account for some of the distain occasionally encountered
>>>>>> concerning
>>>>>> 'things new'. Then again, for such an unusual hobby, it is
>>>>>> surprising how much specialization exists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for new things, have you checked out the new trackless
>>>>>> trolleys
>>>>>> on SEPTA routes 66, 75 and 59? If you wait long enough, it seems
>>>>>> that most things are 're-discovered'. They are low floor "all
>>>>>> service vehicles". The express wires are still used on 66.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Changed to Years Make a Difference
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:44:34 -0400
>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, John, a few years make a lot of difference. On my recent
>>>>>>> trip
>>>>>>> west I stopped in Los Angeles and in Charlottesville to see two
>>>>>>> friends.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In April, 1963 I met two very good friends for the first time:
>>>>>>> Donald N. Duke and William D. Middleton. Don is now 80 and Bill
>>>>>>> ihas turned 81. Bill just lost his wife of 53 years in April. I
>>>>>>> can remember when she was young and there were two little boys
>>>>>>> running around the house. Now the oldest of those boys is a
>>>>>>> tenured
>>>>>>> professor of anthropology at Rochester Institute of Technology.
>>>>>>> Let's see, Bill is 12 years older than me and Don is 11 years
>>>>>>> older.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don remembers Los Angeles during World War II ... sow bellies.
>>>>>>> Wooden standards. Brand new PCCs. He would have been nine when
>>>>>>> Shirley Temple chistened the first PCC. Long trains of wooden
>>>>>>> cars
>>>>>>> on Pacific Electric. He photographed Birney cars in Fort Collins
>>>>>>> when he went to college. Don 's mom supervised the movie studio
>>>>>>> schools ... he knew a lot of the child actors ... he actually
>>>>>>> has a
>>>>>>> picture of himself playing with a little girl named Shirley
>>>>>>> Temple in
>>>>>>> her parents' home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill claims he courted Dorothy on the North Shore. He
>>>>>>> photographed
>>>>>>> things I missed in my own area like the LIberty Bell Route. That
>>>>>>> man got things everywhere that I missed from Bamberger to Fort
>>>>>>> Dodge,
>>>>>>> from Milwaukee Electric to Waterloo, Iowa. He has some fabulous
>>>>>>> early 1950s stuff on Pacific Electric because he was working
>>>>>>> in Los
>>>>>>> Angeles then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you know John and those of your who are younger than
>>>>>>> most ... you
>>>>>>> have a marvelous opportunity that Don and Bill and the old
>>>>>>> timers
>>>>>>> will not have. The industry is being revitalized. The number of
>>>>>>> United States and Canadian cities with trolley lines and subways
>>>>>>> dropped to an all-time low of ten in the 1960s. Phoenix was the
>>>>>>> 58th city when it opened just after Christmas 2008. They're
>>>>>>> moving
>>>>>>> 30,000 passengers a day now! When Savannah's River Street line
>>>>>>> opened in February, the number reached 59 different cities.
>>>>>>> Norfolk
>>>>>>> should be the 60th when opens. Portland has announced that the
>>>>>>> Clackimus line will open on September 12th.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The guys who introduced me and most of us to this hobby had a
>>>>>>> difficult time getting to all the lines before the shut down. We
>>>>>>> just could not get to all of them as fast as they were being
>>>>>>> abandoned. I missed a lot after I became a "railfan." And even
>>>>>>> after I came of legal age, I never got to Los Angeles before
>>>>>>> what Ira
>>>>>>> Swett called Die Day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the biggest problem I'm having today is getting to all the
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> ones as they open. What a fabulous problem. I still haven't
>>>>>>> gotten to see the SLUT line in Seattle. And there was that
>>>>>>> tourist
>>>>>>> line in Galveston that ran for while until Hurricane
>>>>>>> Camille ... I
>>>>>>> saw the cars are sitting at barn in April ... doesn't look like
>>>>>>> they've run since the storm. I missed that. There are about a
>>>>>>> half dozen new lines in France that I have not gotten too ...
>>>>>>> Guess I
>>>>>>> need a few good French dinners too. And Phil Craig showed me
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> great videos of a new light rail line in Porto, Portugal ...
>>>>>>> hell,
>>>>>>> all I have seen there is are those old Brill semi-
>>>>>>> convertibles. I'm
>>>>>>> told I also need to look at what Spain is doing. And Kolkata
>>>>>>> (the
>>>>>>> Brits called it Calcutta) has some new trams with glass
>>>>>>> windows up
>>>>>>> into the roof. I've got to get back to India. So much new
>>>>>>> stuff to
>>>>>>> see and so little time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think about it ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could we be living at better time?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perfesser Fred
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 31, 2009, at 11:09 AM, John Swindler wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fred and I have often discussed the difference that seven years
>>>>>>>> makes. He has memories of low floor cars in Pittsburgh; my
>>>>>>>> memories are of PCCs. I remember only 8 and 15 in Baltimore;
>>>>>>>> Fred has a longer list. And the list goes on. But there are
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> 'impressions' from earlier years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One impression is that there were four movie theaters in
>>>>>>>> Wilkinsburg. Memories start with a theater across from the
>>>>>>>> Rowland
>>>>>>>> on Wood St. being boarded up. There is also an impression of
>>>>>>>> passsing a streetcar on what would have been the Laketon Rd.
>>>>>>>> terminal, but I was only about 5-6 at the time. And there were
>>>>>>>> three stores that carried model trains in Wilkinsburg. Sol's on
>>>>>>>> Penn, a hobby store on Wood and what seemed like a key maker on
>>>>>>>> Rebecca. I bought my last Lionel there around 12 with
>>>>>>>> 'paperboy'
>>>>>>>> earnings: a green Rock Island box car. But that falls into the
>>>>>>>> 'memory' rather than 'impression' category.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for being 'let loose', that around my 13th birthday in
>>>>>>>> summer
>>>>>>>> 1959 when parents allowed me to start Sunday/Holiday pass
>>>>>>>> riding.
>>>>>>>> First time was 64 to Oakland, then 77/54 to northside, then 18
>>>>>>>> towards Woods Run, then everything after kind of merges
>>>>>>>> together.
>>>>>>>> Delivering the Post Gazette paid for some 620 film and helped
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> to become a frequent warm weather weekend ritual for next
>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>> years. In retrospect, I would have taken more photos, not
>>>>>>>> concentrated so much on Library and Drake, and asked a lot more
>>>>>>>> questions. But hey, I was just a kid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> p.s. our barber was on Coal St. near Jane St. terminal of 76
>>>>>>>> Hamilton. Cost was $1 during early 60s.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CC: shaney7366 at aol.com
>>>>>>>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Verona Road at Frankstown 1936
>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:26:54 -0400
>>>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should never say Thanks for the Memories because some damn
>>>>>>>>> fool
>>>>>>>>> might just add more to it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I remember being told that after World War II, the two fastest
>>>>>>>>> growing municipalities in Pennsylvania were Levittown, Bucks
>>>>>>>>> County
>>>>>>>>> and Penn Hills Township, Allegheny County. But much of that
>>>>>>>>> came
>>>>>>>>> after I left.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My parents remembered Deere Brothers running school buses from
>>>>>>>>> Universal to Pittsburgh and Wilkinsburg via Frankstown Road. I
>>>>>>>>> remember in 1955 that he had escalated up to 35 foot air-
>>>>>>>>> ride GM
>>>>>>>>> diesels and Mr. Deere, as my mother called him, was one of a
>>>>>>>>> handful
>>>>>>>>> of profitable carriers that actually fought inclusion into the
>>>>>>>>> Port
>>>>>>>>> Authority. He was making money for the same reason that Merrit
>>>>>>>>> Taylor was churning over dollars in Delaware and Chester
>>>>>>>>> Counties
>>>>>>>>> with his buses and trolleys .... location, location, location.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But what is a suburb. It is nothing more than the next ring
>>>>>>>>> beyond
>>>>>>>>> the urban core that we are now filling up. At least that is a
>>>>>>>>> definition that works for me. In the aughts, teens and
>>>>>>>>> twenties
>>>>>>>>> there were trolley suburbs within the city of Pittsburgh.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Penn Hills was simply the suburb of my youth. Dad had a aerial
>>>>>>>>> photograph of Crescent Hills, where we lived, that Meadow Gold
>>>>>>>>> dairy
>>>>>>>>> was giving away. About one out of every four lots was filled
>>>>>>>>> so it
>>>>>>>>> must have been exposed in the very late 1930s.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were no major stores out there. At the top of Crescent
>>>>>>>>> Hills
>>>>>>>>> Drive on Frankstown Road, there was a small frame convenience
>>>>>>>>> store ... the 7/11 or Turkey Hill or Get and Go of its era.
>>>>>>>>> Seems
>>>>>>>>> to me it had a soda fountain in one end. Eastwood was the
>>>>>>>>> nearest
>>>>>>>>> major grocery store.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wilkinsburg was vibrant. If we went out to dinner on Saturday
>>>>>>>>> night, Wilkinsburg was the place to go.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doctors made house calls. But he also stayed in his office
>>>>>>>>> until he
>>>>>>>>> had seen the last patient in much the same manner that barbers
>>>>>>>>> work. You go, sit in the waiting room, and when he gets to
>>>>>>>>> you, you
>>>>>>>>> see him. Our family doctor's office was on the main drag in
>>>>>>>>> Swissvale. Now remember that this was before the era of two,
>>>>>>>>> three
>>>>>>>>> or four car families. Mom never drove a car. So if it was my
>>>>>>>>> mother who had to visit the doctor or my sister, then dad
>>>>>>>>> had to
>>>>>>>>> driver her there. Then he had the problem of entertaining me
>>>>>>>>> for an
>>>>>>>>> hour or two. Well, my father was sort of a closet railfan.
>>>>>>>>> Not as
>>>>>>>>> nuts as me though he did makes some models in OO gauge and
>>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>>> charter subscriber to Model Railroader. So, when they were
>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> doctor's office, dad would introduce me to sitting along the
>>>>>>>>> PRR in
>>>>>>>>> Edgewood or Swissvale or up on the high level platforms in
>>>>>>>>> Wilkinsburg. I remember getting scared of a fast moving
>>>>>>>>> train and
>>>>>>>>> running into the enclosed platform shelter. I guess all
>>>>>>>>> kids do
>>>>>>>>> that at age 6 or 7. I also remember him parking and killing
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> along Ardmore Blvd. in Forest Hills one night. I wonder if
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> helped to spawn an interest in trolleys? It might be or it
>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>> also be his tale of being overtaken as be a fast moving Ohio
>>>>>>>>> Electric
>>>>>>>>> car as he drove his aunt's 1925 Chevy (that was pre Govm't
>>>>>>>>> Motors
>>>>>>>>> car) along the National Pike.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You want a haircut? For a while dad frequented a barber in
>>>>>>>>> Oakmont
>>>>>>>>> until he found Charlie in East Liberty. Rather strange isn't
>>>>>>>>> that ... fits right in with the commercial, "Get Wildroot
>>>>>>>>> Cream
>>>>>>>>> Oil,
>>>>>>>>> Charlie." I used to assemble Strombecker wooden models that I
>>>>>>>>> acquired in a model store on Penn Avenue in East Liberty.
>>>>>>>>> Seems to
>>>>>>>>> me that East Liberty might have had seven movie palaces at
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> time. I remember going there once to see something.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about the Miracle Mile in Monroeville or the shops on
>>>>>>>>> Rodi
>>>>>>>>> Road
>>>>>>>>> just off Frankstown? They were built after we moved out in
>>>>>>>>> 1949.
>>>>>>>>> Monroeville was where you went on Sunday to milk from a farmer
>>>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>>>> ran out. The other option was the man who ran Stoner's Dairy
>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>> hill between Coal Hollow Road and Lime Hollow Road. Rodi Road?
>>>>>>>>> That's where the old Morrow School was ... one of those
>>>>>>>>> classic
>>>>>>>>> eight
>>>>>>>>> room yellow brick schools. I went there for first and second
>>>>>>>>> grade.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was all country out there up until we moved out in 1949.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I can remember when the Parkway East and West were
>>>>>>>>> built. I
>>>>>>>>> can also remember that you drove out old route 30 to get to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> turnpike at Irwin.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But John Swindler would have to tell you about West Penn. My
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> memory of that was conning my dad into letting me ride 289
>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>> blocks in Jeannette just after I turned 12 and a few months
>>>>>>>>> before it
>>>>>>>>> quit. It was a Saturday morning and the car had a full seated
>>>>>>>>> load. But apparently there were not enough passengers at all
>>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In was the next year that I finally managed to break away. We
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> in Pittsburgh for the obligatory Easter vacation week at
>>>>>>>>> grandma's
>>>>>>>>> home. Dad had given me enough money to buy two interurban zone
>>>>>>>>> fare
>>>>>>>>> books. I rode to Roscoe and Washington on my own. Come
>>>>>>>>> summer we
>>>>>>>>> were on vacation in Montreal. Dad was asked to solve a
>>>>>>>>> corporate
>>>>>>>>> problem between his plant in Lancaster and the Armstrong Cork
>>>>>>>>> plant
>>>>>>>>> in Montreal. (He never did get that day back.) Mom took us
>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>> sightseeing tour car around Montreal thinking that would get
>>>>>>>>> trolleys
>>>>>>>>> out of this 13-year-old's system. Was she ever in for a rude
>>>>>>>>> awakening. By lunch time she apparently tired of my wining and
>>>>>>>>> told
>>>>>>>>> me to "be gone" but I had to be back a intersection on Rue
>>>>>>>>> Ste.
>>>>>>>>> Catherine at 5:00 that afternoon. I took off like wild for the
>>>>>>>>> Montreal and Southern Counties. When I got back she wasn't
>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>> Mom was almost a half hour late. I took having my own
>>>>>>>>> children to
>>>>>>>>> realize that sometimes it is better to be late yourself than
>>>>>>>>> be on
>>>>>>>>> time and risk worrying about where your children are. I had
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> more trolley ride on that trip and that was on a former wooden
>>>>>>>>> New
>>>>>>>>> York or Staten Island trailer on the Quebec Railway for the
>>>>>>>>> eight
>>>>>>>>> miles from Montmorency Falls into Quebec. That was one of
>>>>>>>>> hell of
>>>>>>>>> a ride.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Funny thing about growing up. In your youth you tend to have
>>>>>>>>> tunnel
>>>>>>>>> vision. I've spent a lot of money in my later years seeing all
>>>>>>>>> those places that I didn't want to see when my parents were
>>>>>>>>> dragging
>>>>>>>>> me around on family vacations because the trains and trolleys
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> all important then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 29, 2009, at 9:59 AM, Barry, Matthew R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Great memories! Thank you for sharing!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> Schneider Fred
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Verona Road at Frankstown 1936
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Correct. Brain is at low energy state Art.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 7:43 PM, ArtS32 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think it was Rosedale, I believe this was Eastwood.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Art Swartz
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 5/28/2009 6:25:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight
>>>>>>>>>>> Time,
>>>>>>>>>>> fwschneider at comcast.net writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> Amazing. Simply amazing.
>>>>>>>>>>> I am sending this to my sister as well. She might enjoy
>>>>>>>>>>> clicking on
>>>>>>>>>>> the link which should appear in red when she gets it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We grew up in Penn Township, later Penn Hills. Well, I spent
>>>>>>>>>>> nine
>>>>>>>>>>> years there and she was there for the first three and half
>>>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>>>> She moved back and is living off Penn Avenue above
>>>>>>>>>>> Wilkinsburg,
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps no more than 2 miles from the location of the
>>>>>>>>>>> photo in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> link.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was born three years after the Hulton - Oakmont - Verona -
>>>>>>>>>>> Wilkinsburg trolley line was removed. All that I can
>>>>>>>>>>> remember is
>>>>>>>>>>> remnant of the line, i.e. Laketon Road shuttle. I can
>>>>>>>>>>> vividly
>>>>>>>>>>> recall a day in 1949 when my sister tried jumping off the
>>>>>>>>>>> foot
>>>>>>>>>>> board
>>>>>>>>>>> of my parent's bed head first on to the floor instead the
>>>>>>>>>>> mattress.
>>>>>>>>>>> I spent several hours waiting in the car of a family friend
>>>>>>>>>>> parked
>>>>>>>>>>> outside a hospital or doctor's office in Wilkinsburg. The
>>>>>>>>>>> shuttle
>>>>>>>>>>> car went by many times and that was the day I remember
>>>>>>>>>>> observing, at
>>>>>>>>>>> age 8, that Pittsburgh Low-Floor cars had arch bar
>>>>>>>>>>> trucks. My
>>>>>>>>>>> sister, by the way, did suffer a fractured skull from her
>>>>>>>>>>> sky
>>>>>>>>>>> diving
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt and spent quite a bit of time in a hospital that
>>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But back to the picture below. I don't have a map here. Was
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood not known as Rosedale? I remember that there
>>>>>>>>>>> was a
>>>>>>>>>>> food store there, perhaps a Krogers or an A&P where we did
>>>>>>>>>>> most of
>>>>>>>>>>> grocery shopping. It was situated on the south side of
>>>>>>>>>>> Frankstown
>>>>>>>>>>> just to the east of Verona. I suspect that the
>>>>>>>>>>> photographer was
>>>>>>>>>>> standing almost in front of the grocery store. Sometime
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> World
>>>>>>>>>>> War II they offered a promotional gimmick that I suspect
>>>>>>>>>>> management
>>>>>>>>>>> figured would not cost them anything. If you can bring in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> cover
>>>>>>>>>>> from the first issue (vol. 1 no. 1) of Life magazine, you
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> get a
>>>>>>>>>>> week's worth of groceries free. That was probably about a
>>>>>>>>>>> $5.00
>>>>>>>>>>> value at that time. Maybe a little more. My father
>>>>>>>>>>> marched in
>>>>>>>>>>> with the magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Does that suggest that being a pack rat runs in the family?
>>>>>>>>>>> The run
>>>>>>>>>>> of Life magazines was finally destroyed about 1962. I
>>>>>>>>>>> think it
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> helping to cause the center of the house to sink and pull
>>>>>>>>>>> ends
>>>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>>>> from what was becoming a free standing chimney.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Matt for forwarding it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fred Schneider
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Barry, Matthew R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have only ever seen a photograph of a streetcar with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> VERONA
>>>>>>>>>>>> destination sign, and also, a photograph of the trestle
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>>>>>> crossed over Coal Hollow Road at Verona Road, but no other
>>>>>>>>>>>> pictures
>>>>>>>>>>>> that documented trackage somewhere on the line. Taken in
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1936, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> imagine the cars were still running over this trackage
>>>>>>>>>>>> since the
>>>>>>>>>>>> line wasn't abandoned until the following year - I think
>>>>>>>>>>>> cutback to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Laketon Road. The photo is from the Historic Pittsburgh
>>>>>>>>>>>> site,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> here is the description:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Title: Atlantic White Flash
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: October 6, 1936
>>>>>>>>>>>> Creator: Pittsburgh City Photographer
>>>>>>>>>>>> Description: An Auto Shop and Barber Shop at the
>>>>>>>>>>>> intersection of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Verona Road and Frankstown Avenue. Looking west from Verona
>>>>>>>>>>>> Road.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Type: image/jpeg
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Desc: verona_frankstown_Oct1936.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Size: 64k (66521 bytes)
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-
>>>>>>>>>>>> railways/
>>>>>>>>>>>> verona_frankstown_Oct1936.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>> (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/
>>>>>>>>>>> 355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=eml
>>>>>>>>>>> cntnew00000007)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> _
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>>>>>>
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>>>>
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