[PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER

[Herb Brannon]

I see you like my email format style !!!!
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:

> ________________________________
> > From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> > To: Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net>
> > Cc: Edson Tennyson <etennyson at cox.net>; Al Schneider <
> alschneider2 at juno.com>;
> > Gary Olden <Gary-elaine at comcast.net>; Nawdry <NAWDRy at bga.com>;
> > Kotulak Dick <CRVLKOTULA at aol.com>; Craig Phil <philgcraig204 at yahoo.com>;
> > Swindler1 John <j_swindler at hotmail.com>; Vigrass Bill <
> billvigrass at verizon.net>;
> > Bob Dietrich <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>; Bente Bruce <
> bbente at bellsouth.net>;
> > Lybarger Ed <trams2 at comcast.net>; Allman Rich <allmanr at verizon.net>;
> > Jackson Russ <rejmhj at netzero.net>; Brashear Derrick <shadow at dementia.org
> >;
> > Fitzherbert Tony <Akftrain at aol.com>; Miklos Frank <miklosfrank at comcast.
> .net>;
> > JOHN AURELIUS <jaurelius at centurytel.net>; Russell E. Jackson
> > <russell.jackson at stvinc.com>; pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:44:33 PM
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: METRORAIL DISASTER
>
> > I have a problem with the word disaster in conjunction with an
> > accident that killed nine people... -[snipped]-
>
> > Fred Schneider
>
>
> Mr.Schneider;
>
>
> Tell that to the families of those killed.  Just a simple definition from
> Webster's School Dictionary indicates this crash  'is'  a disaster:  "a
> sudden great misfortune; esp: one bringing with it destruction of life
>  OR-[emphasis-added]  property  OR-[emphasis-added]  causing complete
> ruin..."  This is not unlike the definition of a recession // depression, is
> it;  'recession'  if one is still working // 'depression'  if one is
> unemployed.
>
> Your call the other day to decide if your 'observation(s)'  is//are correct
> (copied below)  ---  on what basis?  Opinion?  Even today the  'facts'
>  surrounding the accident are unknown.  We need to read more than one report
> don't we.  'All that is known'  is that the emergency  'mushroom'  was
> depressed;  other reports quite clearly state it is unknown as to  'when'
>  or by  'whom'  the mushroom was depressed.  Because the Rohr cars do not
> have the required black boxes this may never be known;  other evidence
>  'could'  indicate if the brakes had or had not been applied.
>
> It is entirely too early to be drawing conclusions isn't it;  let's please
> wait.  The  NTSB  conducts thorough investigations doesn't it.
>
> Photos reveal one of the cars  'appeared'  to go airborne over the other
> train with the car essentially sitting on the roof of the other car.
>  'Telescoping'  generally results in the floor of one car riding over the
> floor of another;  there can be worse carnage in such situations.  To borrow
> a term from those who model transit,  telescoping would look like  'literal
> kitbashing'  --  the ramming of two models together to produce one.  The
> photo on pg.371 of  The Interurban Era  is an example of such.
>
> It is already known that the Rohr cars  'could'  telescope in an accident.
>  Do these cars have anticlimbers?  'If'  the anticlimbers engaged
> successfully,  would the impact cause each car to telescope upon itself?
>  This begs basic structural integrity doesn't it.
>
>
> Phil
> Without  a  'coast'  but  not  a  'cause.'
>
> "If thou wouldst rule well,  thou must rule for
> God,
>  and to do that,  thou must be ruled by Him....
> Those who will not be
> governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."
> –William Penn  //  founder  of  "Pennsylvania"
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 24, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Jack May wrote:
>
> .......
>
> > The operator of the Metro train that slammed into a stationary
> > train in front of it apparently had activated the emergency
> > brakes in a failed effort to stop before the accident,.....
>
> > the emergency brake button, known as the "mushroom,"
> > was depressed, .....
>
> > Investigators also said the striking train was in automatic
> > mode, which means onboard computers should have
> > controlled its speed and stopped it before it got too
> > close to the stationary train. In addition, Metro sources said,
> > the first two cars of that train were two months overdue
> > for scheduled maintenance of some braking components.
> .......
> > The crash, the force of which vaulted the striking train
> > atop the one it rammed,.......
>
> > Investigators are also delving into the automatic train
> > protection system, which is designed to make collisions
> > impossible. Had the system been working correctly,
> > it would have sensed that Train 112 was getting too
> > close to Train 214 and directed
> > the brakes aboard Train 112 to engage.
> .....
> > After a special board meeting yesterday, he told reporters,
> > "There's not a letter of evidence" to indicate operator error.
> > And right now, he said, there is also no indication of signal failure."
> >
> > The six cars that made up Train 112 were put together in
> > an unusual way.  Metro trains operate in married pairs of cars,
> > and the lead car is almost always an "A" car, which some]
> > operators say run more smoothly and communicate better
> > with the electronic devices buried along the track. But
> > in the case of Train 112, the lead car was a "B" car, Metro
> > officials said.  It was unclear last night why the train was
> > configured that way. It was also unclear what effect, if any,
> > the configuration could have had on the crash.
> .....
> > But federal investigators consider the cars to be unsafe
> > because of a tendency during a crash to
> > collapse into one another like a telescope, reducing the
> > "survivability" space, or the area in a car in which
> > passengers can escape harm.  The force of the impact
> > sheared the lead car of Train 112, pushing part of it
> > onto the roof of the trailing car of Train 214 and slamming the
> > rest into the body of Train 214.  Two-thirds of Train 112's
> > lead car was crushed, Hersman said.
> ......
> > The NTSB also recommended that Metro install data recorders,
> > similar to the black boxes found in airplanes,.... the Rohr
> > cars did not have them -- a condition that Hersman also called
> > unacceptable. Metro officials also did not install critical
> > software revisions that would have allowed investigators
> > to determine whether the operator had applied the
> > emergency brakes and the train's speed during braking,
> > according to a source knowledgeable about the braking
> > systems. Investigators might be able to determine whether
> > the emergency brakes were deployed based on physical
> > evidence.
>
> Saw Herb Brannon on some of the lists.   Here is a
> comment Herb that
> I added to another list this morning.   The rest of you on the PRC
> list can read what the Grizzly Bear thinks; you can decided whether
> I'm right or wrong.   Apparently there is some information floating
> around that the accident was caused my malfunctioning computer control.
> Fred Schneider
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> > Date: June 23, 2009 11:19:25 AM EDT
> > To: "alschneider2 at juno.com" <alschneider2 at juno.com>
> > Cc: Swindler1 John <j_swindler at hotmail.com>, Vigrass Bill
> > <billvigrass at verizon.net>, Bob Dietrich
> > <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>, Bente Bruce <bbente at bellsouth.net>,
> > Lybarger Ed <trams2 at comcast.net>, Craig Phil
> > <philgcraig204 at yahoo.com>, Allman Rich <allmanr at verizon.net>,
> > Jackson Russ <rejmhj at netzero.net>, Brashear Derrick
> > <shadow at dementia.org>, Fitzherbert Tony <akftrain at aol.com>,
> > Tennyson Ed <etennyson at cox.net>, Miklos Frank
> > <miklosfrank at comcast.net>, May Jack <jack.may at americomm.net>, JOHN
> > AURELIUS <jaurelius at centurytel.net>, "Russell Jackson E."
> > <russell.jackson at stvinc.com>, Kotulak Dick <CRVLKOTULA at aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: METRORAIL DISASTER
> >
>  > I was a little disturbed today to hear to NTSB spokesman give her
> > preliminiary belief that the wreck was caused by old cars.   I
> > cannot help but remember all those wooden elevated cars from the
> > turn of the century that CTA was still running after World War
> > II.   Or all the 1912 Nearsides that PTC still had on the streets
> > in 1955.   Or how about the 1906 Market Street Elevated cars that
> > were finally replaced in 1960 by the Budd Almond Joy cars.
> >
> > I guess even if the "motorperson" was not guilty, I would want to
> > blame the industry standard today that defers maintenance until
> the
> > car is so beat that we can go to the federal government and get
> > capital money to restore it to safe operating condition.   It
> think
> > John Swindler's line supporting that was, "The only real money is
> > local money."   We'll do anything to avoid spending local money.
> >
> > I am trying to remember back to some discussions I heard during
> the
> > construction of the original Rohr cars ... such as here are the
> > tunnel dimensions ... can you build a car to fit.   It related to
> > cost of tunneling is proportional to cross sectional area times
> > distance and if we can make the cars more compact in cross
> section,
> > we can make the tunnel costs cheaper.  Does that compromise the
> > structure of the car?  That is for some one else to answer.
> >
> > The real question is why did it happen and I cannot accept simply
> > that the cars are older.   If that is so, then how is it that the
> > Strasburg can run steam engines built over 80 years ago pulling
> > wooden coaches that were built 100 years ago?   And how was the
> > Pennsylvania Railroad able to run L1s and K4s in 1957 that were 43
>
> > years old?   I think someone from the NTSB needs a muzzle.
> >
> >
> > On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:06 AM, alschneider2 at juno.com wrote:
> >
> >> Six are known dead, there are reports of a seventh trapped in
> the
> >> wreckage.  70 were taken to various hospitals, with a few
> being in
> >> critical condition; according to the press, some may not make
> it.
> >>
> >> I have read that the NTSB wanted the Rohrs retired or at least
>
> >> strengthened; the Bredas were strengthened but not the Rohrs.
> Mr.
> >> Catoe has not proposed doing anything, at least publicly.  The
>
> >> 1000's are also suffering fatigue, with early stages of
> cracking.
> >> They must be replaced according to press reports by 2020 or
> so.
> >> There next equipment order, the 7000's, are for the Dulles
> >> extension - Metro informally calls them the Virginia cars.
> Only
> >> after that car order will Metro order cars for general fleet
> >> expansion and/or replacement of the 1000's.
> >>
> >> This is reportedly the third collision with Rohrs overriding
> other
> >> cars.
> >>
> >> There are three levels of automation:
> >>
> >> 1.  Automatic train protection - this is always in operation
> and
> >> appears to have not functioned properly.
> >>
> >> 2.  Automatic train control -  the computer drives the train,
> not
> >> the operator.  Normally Metro operates in this mode, but not
> >> always.  The Shady Grove collision and fatality was due to
> poor
> >> braking during a snow storm; the operator requested permission
> to
> >> operate manually, was not permitted to do so, and died as a
> >> result.  The rail operating manager had ordered 100% automatic
>
> >> operation to save money on break pads.  He left the authority
> not
> >> long after the fatality.
> >>
> >> 3.  Computer train scheduling (I've forgotten the technical
> term
> >> for this) - the computer increases or decreases speed to keep
> >> trains on schedule.  This has never been implemented.
> >>
> >> I do not consider myself an expert on either Metro or transit,
> but
> >> I think the above is true.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>                            Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Herb Brannon
On America's North Coast