[PRCo] Re: Dallas

Mon Sep 28 09:01:24 EDT 2009

That's why I like low floor cars - or even a low floor section of a car.  Wheelchairs can roll straight onto the vehicle from a safety island.  Or if a bus, from some curbs.  

Gets rid of lifts, which are a maintenance headache.  And gets rid of attempting to make everything high platform - which is expensive.  

Gets rid of high platform sections at stations - such as Sacramento, where operator has to leave his seat to operate a ADA ramp.  Slow down the operation.

And makes it easy for the older folk who have a hard time climbing up steps, such as car 66 at PTM.  Faster loading means higher service speed.  

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Dallas
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:38:32 -0400
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> 
> The law was there in the 1960s or 1970s. Initially it applied only 
> to new construction funded with federal dollars. Thus PATCO, for 
> example, was initially exempt. The Americans With Disabilities Act 
> was later extended to all transportation facilities with the 
> exception of heritage vehicles such as the New Orleans 900 series 
> cars, the San Francisco cable cars, and, of course, vehicles in 
> museums. Any museum with any management gray matter will take 
> whatever steps are reasonably feasible to accommodate passengers ... 
> if not in all vehicles, at least in certain vehicles, even if the law 
> doesn't require it. PTM, for example, has several cars into which 
> wheel chair lifts can be fitted.
> 
> The San Francisco cars running on routes J, K, L, M and T have to 
> already be ADA compliant. However, Muni and SEPTA and a lot of 
> other agencies found a loop hole. The loop hole in the law says 
> that the most important stops need to be ADA compliant ... you may 
> ignore the rest. Well, obviously the most important are downtown. 
> So you make them compliant. And those in the suburbs where people 
> life become the least important. That way we don't need to worry 
> with riders in wheel chairs. If they cannot get on at home, then 
> they cannot get off downtown!
> 
> If you look at the San Francisco Municipal Railway map below, you 
> will see that most of the suburban stops are considered 
> unimportant.... All of the subway stops are in the important 
> category. BART paid for them when the subway opened in 1972. 
> Balboa Park is a joint station with BART. City College and San 
> Francisco State University are obviously important stops. Now lets 
> talk about the neighborhoods where people live ... one in every three 
> of four stops is handicapped accessible. Window dressing. It it 
> actually meets the letter of the law. There was a suit back in the 
> 1990s and Muni won ... they did just what they had to do.
> 
> http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mroutes/documents/T3-Manual_v6na.pdf
> 
> Note that the new construction ... the connection between the J and M 
> line ... all stops are ADA compliant. They had to be. And all 
> stops on the T line (South Third Street) are ADA compliant. They 
> had to be.
> 
> The F line ... we got bamboozled on that one. It was new 
> construction using heritage cars so they got away with making it non 
> ADA compliant.
> 
> Sometimes we actually build non-compliant stations which are official 
> compliant. I have pictures of the "ADA compliant" Port Authority 
> Transit South Bank light rail station in Pittsburgh. The station 
> meets all the requirements. Except there is no %#$%^& way you could 
> negotiate the path leading to it in a wheel chair. You have to be 
> dropped off by automobile.
> 
> I am going to state that I like those low floor cars because you can 
> at least get a wheel chair on to them from a safety island. That 
> might be a good way to make a lot of otherwise non-compliant 
> operations like SEPTA satisfy the law.
> 
> Frankly, I'm buying in to being nice to people.
> 
> Why am I taking this position? Is it because I might now qualify 
> for a handicapped license plate on my own car? I do but that isn't 
> the reason. I seldom use the handicapped sticker ... others need it 
> a lot more than I do. The reason is the same thing that makes me 
> smile when Bob Dietrich's daughter told me she likes her job 
> inspecting bridges. Fabulous. A woman in a non-traditional job. 
> Bully for her. And the handicapped working. Bully for them too. 
> You see I had a man who worked for me who had cerebral palsy ... 
> bright man ... sometimes a tad tempestuous but he did hold an MBA ... 
> he was really bright and knew how to do his job well. Just because 
> he couldn't climb a flight of stairs was no reason for him to stay at 
> home.
> 
> Fred S
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 26, 2009, at 8:24 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> 
> > Mr.Schneider;
> >
> > This is fascinating; they are actually inserting a low-floor 
> > section into
> > a standard-floor car. It is a shame the original cars are this 
> > old; I
> > understand the concern about longevity of the 'half-breed.'
> >
> > Some of the transit systems are more efficiently operated than
> > others; maybe this is the case with DART and these cars will
> > last longer than expected. I understand your reasoning and
> > deductions casting doubt about service life.
> >
> > San Francisco and Boston could do this as well to make the
> > cars more ADA accessible; age of current behicles works
> > against this possibility. San Francisco has the added problem
> > of all high-platform loading in the subway; an ADA passenger
> > would need to get from the low-floor to standard-floor section
> > when traveling between the subway and surface. Always
> > challenges aren't there.
> >
> >
> > Phil
> > Without a 'coast' but not a 'cause.'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:00:47 PM
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Dallas
> >
> > I do not remember who built the original Dallas cars. The low-floor
> > center sections are new. They go with the on-going conversion to
> > low-level platforms throughout the entire DART system.
> >
> > If I am not making myself totally clear ... they are adding the
> > center section, lengthening the trains, and then removing the
> > handicapped lifts or high level facilities at the stations because
> > now everyone will be able to get on the cars at the middle of the 
> > train.
> >
> > I am on DART's e-mail news release list. I've seen the
> > announcements. But if you were to ask me when will the conversion
> > be 100% completed, I don't know.
> >
> > This approach is not uncommon. I first saw the Europeans doing the
> > same thing ... I think it was in Tallin, Estonia that I first saw low-
> > floor center sections being added to cars.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this approach never has lasted long because the end
> > sections of the cars are already old when you do it. The original
> > single truck cars that Boston converted to two-bedroom and bath cars
> > to make them more labor efficient around the turn on the century
> > didn't buy many more years because they were junk to start with.
> > Pittsburgh's splice cars 2100 and 2101 didn't last long either
> > because they built them out of worn out wooden bodies. DART is
> > apparently attempting to prolong the life of 40 cars built in 1996
> > and 75 more built in 2001-2002.
> >
> > To put their age into perspective ... the first cars now are 13 years
> > old. That is older than the original 25 Dallas PCC cars were when
> > streetcars were abandoned in Dallas in 1956. That's about one year
> > less than Vancouver got out of its PCCs. Its the longevity of the
> > 600 PCCs that Chicago bought after World War II. We are now at
> > 65% of the life of the Brooklyn PCCs or the Pittsburgh 1000s or 1100s.
> >
> > Granted there are exceptions but in an environment where the federal
> > government pays you to throw away equipment and buy new vehicles, I
> > would not count on those rebuilds being around for two long.
> >
> > If you want the details, here is the fact sheet that DART released.
> >
> > http://www.dart.org/factsheet/slrv/default.asp
> >
> > On Sep 26, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> >
> >> I don't always understand computers; this was sent
> >> 'successfully' early in the AM yet does not appear in my
> >> inbox nor sent folders, just the draft. This is a retry; my
> >> apologies if this is a second copy.
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 6:39:22 AM
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Dallas .... first service to Fair Park ...
> >>> enlarge one of those jpeg or tiff photos ... they're great.
> >>
> >>> I do not know what your point is Phil.
> >>
> >>> If it is the high level loading in Dallas, forget it.
> >>> DART is converting the entire system to
> >>> low floor loading.
> >>
> >> ...so says Mr.Schneider. What do the references
> >> from the website say in the form of these Urls?
> >>
> >> It appears that the bulk of the car is standard floor.
> >> It appears that the car is double articulated.
> >> It also appears that only the very center section
> >> of the car is low floor.
> >> It appears that the bulk of the car - each end before
> >> the articulation - is standard floor.
> >> Thus the system is not low-floor but 25%-low-floor.
> >> 2-3-steps very much in evidence.
> >> Doors appear to slide into a well.
> >>
> >> Who manufactures these cars?
> >>
> >> I like this configuration.
> >>
> >> http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/preview/fairparkevening.jpg
> >>
> >> http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/greenlineart/preview/
> >> supersaturdayboarding.jpg
> >>
> >> http://www.dart.org/newsroom/greenlinemediakit/images/preview/
> >> PorcariDARTTour.jpg
> >>
> >> http://www.dart.org/newsroom/greenlinemediakit/images/preview/
> >> lrtnorthdeepellum.jpg
> >>
> >> On the other hand Portland is listed as a 70% low-floor
> >> car, double articulated. Only the very end of the car over
> >> the power truck is standard floor; all the rest of the car is
> >> low-floor which including the center section between the
> >> articulated joints and beyond the articulation to the
> >> power truck.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Phil
> >> Without a 'coast' but not a 'cause.'
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>>> From: Schneider Fred <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: Skip Gatermann <biker4 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>> Cc: Mike Schreiber <m11h16s45 at aol.com>; Michael Greene
> >>>> <michael_t_greene at yahoo.com>; Matt Dawn <mwntrolley at aol.com>;
> >>>> Conrad Misek <crmisek at aol.com>; Joe Bux <baybridgecondo3 at aol.com>;
> >>>> Frank Pfuhler <PFUHLER at MSN.COM>; E Casey <ecasey9631 at aol.com>; Vic
> >>>> Gordon <lipizzansvt2 at aol.com>; David Dillard <jwne at temple.edu>;
> >>>> John Sikorskie <sparkyberadi at aol.com>; Jim Greller
> >>>> <jcgreller at hcia.org>; Randy Gluckman <randygluck1 at aol.com>; Bob
> >>>> Vogel <chuchubob at yahoo.com>; Bradley Clark <bhc1 at aol.com>; Mary
> >>>> O'Brien <maryobrien at charter.net>; Jimmy Boylan XX
> >>>> <jamesboylan at compuserve.com>; Bill Armstrong <wja1933 at juno.com>;
> >>>> Richard Panse <brtpcc at mac.com>; Alex Vaughn
> >>>> <alexlvaughn at yahoo.com>; Brad Noyes <nozze4 at att.net>; Bill
> >>>> Mangahas <newkirk at optonline.net>; JJ Earl <dukeoq at aol.com>; Joseph
> >>>> Frank <nycmodeltransit at webtv.net>; Jack Rush XX <rush123 at cox.net>;
> >>>> Mark Goldfeder <frgs4evr at aol.com>; Andrew Chalfen
> >>>> <chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu>; Michael Rambo Jr <mrambojr at yahoo.com>;
> >>>> Ted
> >>> Eickmann <twe2431 at sbcglobal.net>; Bill Paulus
> >>> <studedude43 at hotmail.com>; Muench <cemuench2 at comcast.net>; Bruce
> >>> Bente <bbente at bellsouth.net>; Raleigh Dadamo <dadamor at aol.com>;
> >>> David Horwitz <air2619 at aol.com>; David Pirmann
> >>> <pirmann at quuxuum.org>; Neil Carlson <ndc10169 at webtv.net>; Chris
> >>> Gatermann <cgatermann at yahoo.com>; Robert Arce <r516169 at yahoo.com>;
> >>> KELVIN WILKE <kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net>; Raymond Crapo Jr
> >>> <raycrapo at prodigy.net>; Carlos Mercado <cmercado at rochester.rr.com>;
> >>> Merill Resnick <mhr62 at aol.com>; Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net>;
> >>> Lewis Hitch <lewis.hitch at verizon.net>; Michael Richmond
> >>> <neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com>; Thurston Clark
> >>> <trolleydude1 at yahoo.com>; Edward Havens <edhavens at cox.net>; Jeff
> >>> Marinoff <jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com>; Harry Pinsker <hp1944 at aol.com>;
> >>>> Joseph Eid <jeidj at comcast.net>; Scott Becker <sbecker at pa-
> >>> trolley.org>; William Young <wbyoung at mindspring.com>; Russ Jackson
> >>>> <rejmhj at netzero.net>; C. K. Leverett
> >>>> <cleverett at comcast.net>; Charles Greene
> >>>> <charles.greene99 at gmail.com>; Ronald Kupin <ronkup at hotmail.com>;
> >>>> Nate Gerstein <atsnate at comcast.net>; Melvin Bernero
> >>>> <mbernero at prodigy.net>; Favorite Daugher <cue37 at charter.net>;
> >>>> George Boucher <berasltm18 at sbcglobal.net>; Rich Parente
> >>>> <urr316 at optonline.net>; Evan Jennings <evan at tmny.org>; Harold Golk
> >>>> <haroldgolk at comcast.net>; Matthew Mummert <mlmummert at comcast.net>;
> >>>> Bob Paradise <rjp500 at snet.net>; Bill Volkmer
> >>>> <bvolkmer at bellsouth.net>; Andrew Sisk <asisk at sbcglobal.net>;
> >>>> Charlie Dennis <cdennis220 at aol.com>; Herald Wind
> >>>> <hlwind384 at comcast.net>; Bill Myers <TrolleyBill77 at cs.com>; Tom
> >>>> Gatermann <tgatermann at gmail.com>; Edward Davis
> >>> <biged_IRT5543 at bresnan.net>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:10:57 PM
> >>>> Subject: [PRCo] Dallas .... first service to Fair Park ... enlarge
> >>>> one of those jpeg or tiff photos ... they're great.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.dart.org/newsroom/greenlinemediakit/default.asp#images
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sep 25, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.dart.org/riding/accessibility.asp#rail
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>> Without a 'coast' but not a 'cause.'
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 

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