[PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.

[Fred Schneider]

I think Art Ellis was still working for Pittsburgh Railways when PAT was formed.   He is still working "in the industry."   He works as a ticket agent, store clerk, photographer of kids with Santa, etc., etc.   He labors for PTM.   If you look at Cuzin Bruce's website, you might just find a picture of a Philly PCC with a headsign 90 ART on Art's last birthday.   

For those who don't know ... Bruce Wells, who has the PTM museum blog is married to Art Ellis's daughter.

The young lady named Sarah Wells on the museum board is Art's granddaughter.   She is an industrial arts teacher.   


On Apr 12, 2010, at 10:57 PM, John Swindler wrote:

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> Hi Phil
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> There are no Pittsburgh Railway people left at PAT.  That was 46 years ago.
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> There is a PTC person left at SEPTA - he started as a motorman in 1955 and spent his 16th training day on nearside cars.  He  said they were still used on routes 15 and 20 at the time, but I have my doubts about route 20.  
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> And transit consultants are no different then others in the transit industry - or any industry, I suspect.  Let's just say it's been an interesting year.
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> Cheers
> 
> John
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>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:13:46 -0700
>> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> 
>> * To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> * Subject: Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>> * From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> * Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:16:29 -0400
>> ________________________________
>> 
>> Intentional??? Doubtful
>> But how many transit managers spend their
>> holidays observing transit
>> observations overseas???
>> Why would decision makers know what options
>> were available for light rail overhead construction???
>> That's why they
>> hired consultants.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> John
>> ________________________________
>> 
>> Mr.Swindler;
>> 
>> 
>> I don't know where one can draw the line between
>> 'accident' and intention.
>> 
>> If the rest of your statement is true then Pat is in far
>> worse shape than I ever thought. Transit agencies
>> often propose specifications, needs, etc. internally
>> don't they. Pat probably inherited much PRC talent
>> that has such experience. Yes, 'some' but not all
>> retired and certainly they passed their knowledge to
>> others. Additionally, transit consultants are certainly
>> aware of world wide construction techniques aren't
>> they. Or are they according to your comments above?
>> Certainly a case for being extra cautious hiring
>> consultants. Who in his right mind would have
>> suggested such massive overhead support structures?
>> 
>> Your comments seem to make an even greater case
>> for intent to denigrate don't they. As far as I am
>> concerned I wasn't sold on this idea until I considered
>> it for these emails. I am still not sold on 'intent' but
>> it is more plausible than some of the arguments here.
>> 
>> Shame on Pat for being so oblivious to construction
>> techniques around them. Shame on Pat for ignoring
>> the warnings of their own employees on this project.
>> Shame on Pat if they allowed good overhead people
>> to leave without training replacements. Shame on
>> Pat for such negligence in hiring consultants. Shame
>> on Pat for not listening to Mr.Tennyson and possibly
>> others, many others. Pat doesn't just have a bad
>> reputation; rather, they have stripped themselves of
>> a reputation altogether. It is an organization without
>> a soul. 
>> 
>> It 'is' part of Pats job to be aware of industry standards;
>> shame on Pat for such reckless negligence. This
>> borders on inexcusable.
>> 
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: robert simpson <bobs at pacbell.net>
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 4:10:52 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>>> 
>>>> Wonder if they were intended to be "ugly" -
>>>> or if it was really state-of-the-art for the era in
>>>> which they were originally built? 
>>>> They didn't have as efficient insulation at that time.
>>> 
>>>> Bob 
>>>> from Krazy Kalifornia
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:55:05 -0700
>>> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in D.C.
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Charlesebrown at webtv.net;
>> ktjosephson at embarqmail.com; Milwaukee-electric at dementia.org;
>> rpmurphy at charter.net
>>> 
>>> Mr.Simpson;
>>> 
>>> As stated the 'ugliness' of the overhead as intentional is
>>> postulation; 'insider' confirmation would be needed as
>>> foundation for 'proving' such a charge wouldn't it. The
>>> history of Pats hostility toward trolleys is well documented
>>> from Mr.Dameron through the authority's balking at the
>>> rebuilding of the Overbrook line which seems quite
>>> successful now completed. This gives some credence
>>> to the postulation.
>>> 
>>> Insulation is hardly the problem; it is the massive towers
>>> used to hold up the overhead. Some have commented
>>> such towers are more in line with the mainline PRR RR
>>> and GG1 operation. Simple span or floating span
>>> overhead was in use by a very high percentage of
>>> light rail operations world wide when this unsightly
>>> Pgh overhead was constructed. This lends more
>>> credence to the postulation when much simpler
>>> overhead is available doesn't it.
>>> 
>>> Mr.Swindler mentions Pat was advised not to install
>>> such heavy overhead yet ignored the advice. Again,
>>> this adds more to the postulation that a company
>>> which abandoned trolleys before buses were available,
>>> which openly denigrated trolleys, which balked at
>>> light rail construction, which balked at rebuilding
>>> the Overbrook line did significantly over build the
>>> light rail infrastructure to continue the denigration.
>>> 
>>> I thought this original postulation was 'interesting;'
>>> after this simple review it gains a little more respect
>>> doesn't it. Maybe Mr.Tennyson has more inside
>>> information on the project. 'If' this was the intention
>>> of Pat it 'apparently' was not successful in
>>> canceling light rail construction elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> Constant writing on this topic over 30+years has
>>> worn itself out hasn't it. It is time to put this
>>> topic to rest.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Phil
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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