[PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh, Knoxville and St Clair Railway

Mon Aug 2 13:03:31 EDT 2010

I need to see if I can get better mapping data, but at first brush the
line seems to have been overengineered; Namely, I bet that trestle and
the grade on Brosville (and the accoutrements it required) are what
broke them, and it was rapidly obsolete as new routes (18th st, new
arlington) opened, even if you assumed people wanted to ride a car and
not have to transfer via the incline(s).

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net> wrote:
> The sepia photo is the same as one of those I have, and it is definitely a
> "we're showing off our new installation" photo.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Dwight
> Long
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:41 AM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh, Knoxville and St Clair Railway
>
> Ed
>
> It sure does.  What appears to be a slot on the smaller fot, even when it is
> enlarged on the computer screen, turns out to be a very strange, primitive
> rack arrangement.  I've never seen a rack like that either in person or in
> fots before.  Maybe there never was another!
>
> Derrick's surmise could be correct, that the sepia fot is one of
> dismantling--but equally possible, I should think, is that it is of
> construction.  Whatever, at least we now know the function of the center
> appurtenance.
>
> Thanks for solving the mystery!
>
> Dwight
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Edward H. Lybarger
>  To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>  Sent: Sunday, 01 August, 2010 12:21
>  Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh, Knoxville and St Clair Railway
>
>
>  About 15 years ago, when Carl Schultz was producing his Trolley: The Cars
>  that Built our Cities video, he visited the Historical Society of Western
>  PA, an organization that owns seven negatives of this company's facilities
>  and operations.  They actually let him borrow these negatives so that Fred
>  Schneider could print them.  On that occasion, I acquired a personal set
> of
>  properly-printed photographs, which clearly show the early cogwheel and
> rack
>  arrangement.  The two that best illustrate it are attached.  I believe
> this
>  will clarify the issue.
>  Ed
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>  [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
> Derrick
>  Brashear
>  Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 11:46 AM
>  To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>  Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh, Knoxville and St Clair Railway
>
>  Given the line lasted but 3 years, it's conceivable this was a dismantling
>  shot?
>
>  Derrick
>
>
>  On Aug 1, 2010, at 10:37 AM, "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>  > Derrick
>  >
>  > I got the part about it being a Daft system, which is usually thought of
>  as a counterpart to the Van de Poele "troller" system with OLE and
> flexible
>  wires connecting the OLE contactor ("troller") and the powered vehicle.
>  However, it is also claimed that Leo Daft invented the third rail system.
>
>  >
>  > What I find curious is the slot between the rails in the foreground.  On
>  the trestle there seems also to be provision for some sort of apparatus
>  between the rails.  Could this have been Daft's third rail, a sort of
>  conduit, which was later replaced by his OLE system?  Or is it the remnant
>  of an earlier cable system?
>  >
>  > Take a closer look at the first fot.  Supports for the OLE are clearly
>  visible on the trestle part of the line, but there does not appear to be
> any
>  contact wire strung on them.  The slot appears continuous up to the place
>  where the workers are congregated, where there is a gap in it on both
>  tracks.  Now look at the "slot" on the actual trestle.  It could not be
> very
>  deep or it would have cut the bridge ties and destroyed their structural
>  integrity.  But it would have been deep enough to enclose a small contact
>  rail?
>  >
>  > Mysteries!
>  >
>  > Dwight
>  >  ----- Original Message -----
>  >  From: Derrick Brashear
>  >  To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>  >  Sent: Sunday, 01 August, 2010 09:44
>  >  Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh, Knoxville and St Clair Railway
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
> http://www.lifeinwesternpa.org/viewDetail.asp?SpecSub=Cars%2CStreetcars&titl
>  e=Transportation+-%3E+Cars%2FStreetcars&ID=118#
>  >
>  >  suggests the portion along Brosville (Birmingham, at the time) used
>  >  trollers, anyway...
>  >
>  >  On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Derrick Brashear <shadow at dementia.org>
>  wrote:
>  >> It was a Daft operation, so that seemed conceivable, but there's no
>  obvious sign of it between the sidewalk and the ramp.
>  >>
>  >> I dumped what I could find into a wikipedia article, and corrected
>  another that claimed it was an. 1870s incline.
>  >>
>  >> Derrick
>  >>
>  >> On Aug 1, 2010, at 1:28 AM, Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net> wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Derrick
>  >>>
>  >>> From the photo,it looks more like a cable in a slot between the rails
>  than a rack.
>  >>>
>  >>> Dwight
>  >>>
>  >>> ----- Original Message -----
>  >>> From: Derrick Brashear
>  >>> To: Pittsburgh Railways Group
>  >>> Sent: Saturday, 31 July, 2010 11:41
>  >>> Subject: [PRCo] Pittsburgh, Knoxville and St Clair Railway
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> I could swear we talked about this, but I find no evidence...
>  >>>
>  >>> Apparently this came back what is now South 13th St in the South Side,
>  >>> then just before reaching the PV&C (PRR Mon Division) tracks, turned
>  >>> left between two houses, and went up a ramp, turning hard right *over*
>  >>> South 14th and jumping over the railroad, before heading up what is
>  >>> now Brosville. Was there in the 1890s, and was gone by 1901,
>  >>> presumably because the line over New Arlington Avenue was faster,
>  >>> lower maintenance, and served more people, and also this approximately
>  >>> paralleled the Knoxville Incline?
>  >>>
>  >>> Related:
>  >>>
>
> http://www.lifeinwesternpa.org/viewDetail.asp?SpecSub=Cars%2CStreetcars&titl
>  e=Transportation+-%3E+Cars%2FStreetcars&ID=119
>  >>>
>  >>> This was the rack (geared) operation, presumably?
>  >>>
>  >>> --
>  >>> Derrick
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  --
>  >  Derrick
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
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-- 
Derrick