[PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409

[Fred Schneider]

Route 38 and route 42 were independent lines until 1963 when a paving project on West Liberty Avenue resulted in the conversion of route 38.   The construction was between the intersection of Brookline Boulevard and Dormont Junction and  the 39 Brookline route continued rail for several more years.   I am at a loss for where I put the second of my two PCC books.   I printed the conversion dates in a fold out in it.  I do have a photograph of a 39 Brookline car taken by Phil Craig in August 1966.   I know that the 38 conversion was sometime in 1963.   
If there was any 42/38 service before 1963, it logically would have been an owl car.   There was sufficient business during daylight hours to justify service between Dormont Junction and Brookline Boulevard.   




On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Jack May wrote:

> After reading the correspondence as it came out, I was under the impression that what was being said was that the inner portion of the 38 did not run on Saturdays and service along the outer end in Mt. Lebanon was provided by 42/38 cars.  My recollection was different, and it was proven by the attached timetable:  that 42 cars were extended southward from Dormont Jct. to serve Mt. Lebanon’s shopping district on Saturdays.
>  
> I visited Pittsburgh 5 or 6 times a year in those years (specifically to ride its streetcars--and pick up a pound of chocolate fudge from Bolan’s on Wood Street), and my recollection is that the Saturday cars were numbered 42, not 42/38.  But that was a long time ago and I may not be correct.
>  
> It is ironic that the line now goes underground through that section, with no station.
>  
> Jack
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dwight Long [mailto:dwightlong at verizon.net]
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 12:19 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Fred Schneider
> Cc: Skip Gatermann; Unknown Holtz; Michael Greene; Matt Dawn; Conrad Misek; Joe Bux; Frank Pfuhler; E Casey; Vic Gordon; David Dillard; John Sikorskie; Jim Greller; Randy Gluckman; Bob Vogel; Bradley Clark; Mary O'Brien; Jimmy Boylan XX; Bill Armstrong; Richard Panse; Alex Vaughn; Brad Noyes; Bill Mangahas; JJ Earl; Dave Neubauer; Jack Rush XX; Mark Goldfeder; Andrew Chalfen; Michael Rambo Jr; Ted Eickmann; Bill Paulus; Muench; Bruce Bente; Raleigh Dadamo; David Horwitz; David Pirmann; Neil Carlson; Chris Gatermann; Robert Arce; KELVIN WILKE; Raymond Crapo Jr; Carlos Mercado; Merill Resnick; Jack May; Lewis Hitch; Michael Richmond; Thurston Clark; Edward Havens; Jeff Marinoff; Harry Pinsker; Joseph Eid; Scott Becker; Trolley One; Russ Jackson; C. K. Leverett; Charles Greene; Ronald Kupin; Nate Gerstein; Melvin Bernero; Favorite Daugher; Trolley Two; Rich Parente; Evan Jennings; Harold Golk; Matthew Mummert; Bob Paradise; Bill Volkmer; Andrew Sisk; Charlie Dennis; Herald Wind; Edward Davis; #1 Son
> Subject: Re: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
>  
>  
> John
>  
> The copy I sent you yesterday is indeed (one piece) from a schedule set for the route and, perhaps not surprisingly, I got it from John Baxter. It may well be the last one issued before Rt 38 was changed in May 1963 to eliminate the operation on West Liberty Avenue .  I was away from Pgh from mid-1960 to December 1962 and do not believe I obtained this before I left.  In like manner, the 4 September 1962 public timetable, reproduced here for you, may have been the last public TT.  I have a bunch of them and most likely obtained them as "worthless" at the time of elimination of 38 as a separate route.
>  
> As you can see, the 42/38 service was daylight on Saturday only, but ran as such in owl hours other days. This will also answer your question about 38 being a separate route (most of the time).  I don't think this TT reflects Drake or Shannon cars which may have used the Beechview line in counter-rush hour flow.
>  
> You are correct that there was a crossover just inbound from Dormont Jct.  I have pictures of at least one PERC tour car using it and the tail of the Dormont wye to do just what you say.  However, I cannot recall this ever being done routinely. When we did it on our tours, there was a lot of digging and "persuading" the points to move to permit this route!
>  
> Your recollection of 42 only operating (during daytime) on Sundays to the wye tallies with the 1962 schedule.  Also, workday trips reversed here as well.  What the schedule does NOT show is any Rt. 43 service.  I am guessing by that time that Neeld loop was only used to put late cars back onto schedule when they had a follower to pick up pax intending to travel beyond.  Your observation from the 20s-era track map (which I do not have and have never seen) would jibe perfectly with the 1914 use of Neeld Avenue 43 terminus as the base for Beechview service in that era.
>  
> Many of the routes which are identified in the 1914 route listing by PRC 3-digit route numbers do not show destination sign numbers in that publication.  The ones that do not have destination sign numbers, aside from the interurbans and interurban local lines, are indeed "transfer cars" or otherwise non-trunk routes.  I cannot answer your question about 55 and 56 except to say that latter-day 55, 56, 57 and 58 all had the same destination sign numbers in the 1914 publication.  I cannot, however, find a listing for what we knew as Rt. 59?!  Maybe my eyes have played tricks on me, but I just don't see it.  Surely it must have been built and in operation by then?
>  
> I know exactly where 4322 was posed for the photo.  Using that bit of track was SOP when 38A was operated as a shuttle, this to avoid tying up regular 38 cars by using the Clearview loop to turn 38A shuttles (which also involved a messy back up move--there was no wye connection there as there was in a similar arrangement at Riverview).
>  
> Dwight
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Swindler
> 
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org ; Fred Schneider
> Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; Conrad Misek ; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ;Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ;Michael Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; Raleigh Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ;Chris Gatermann ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston Clark ; Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ;Harold Golk ; Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son
> Sent: Friday, 13 August, 2010 13:10
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
>  
> 
>  
> Hi Dwight
>  
> This is another instance where I wish I had had the insight to ask a lot more questions of John Baxter while he was still alive, particularly in early 1960s.  He was out next door neighbor during 1950s, and we blame him for my electric railfan interest.
>  
> In particular, this looks like something used internally within the schedule department.  (wish I'd asked John B. for a complete set of all forms used by PRC schedule department)
>  
> Concerning your public timetable dtd 9/4/62, does it show 38 as a separate route, or was the outer end already combined with 42?  I should have a circa 1960 schedule downstairs which might show if the 42/38 routing was for getting cars to Tunnel carhouse, or for late evening/night service.  PRC watched their nickels.
>  
> When W. Liberty Ave. section of route 38 abandoned, the outbound 42 connection to Washington Rd. was changed from single to double track.  Also, I think there was a crossover in W. Liberty inbound of Dormont Wye.  This would allow an outbound 42 car to go inbound on W. Liberty.  
>  
> Most of my recollection is of the 42/38 operation. route 38 was already gone as a separate entity.   But there is the memory that Beechview operated only to Dormont Wye on Sundays, circa 1960.  During Sunday pass riding, when my 42 car reached end of line around noon, I'd retire to Isaly's across the street from Dormont Wye for a 25 cent chocolate milk shake.
>  
> According to 1920s track map, in the early years, 42 was single track with passing sidings Neeld Ave. to Dormont Wye (Junction).  There was a passing siding at Potomac.  Guess a lot had to do with how the area developed.
>  
> As for route numbers, they appear around 1914, probably to make various routes easier to identify in downtown, E. Liberty and Oakland.  Initially the low floor cars could display two numbers.  It didn't take long, according to some PUC records, for route consolidations to occur, freeing up some numbers.  As for outlying shuttle routes, they didn't need number - the public knew where the car was destined.  "Donora" sufficed up to the end.  I've wondered about the early 1920s low floor purchase effect on route numbering.  Were 55 and 56 among the last routes to get low floors, accounting for use of 55A and 56A for short turns?? 
>  
> Back to Clearview Loop - car 4322 is on a short piece of track that would not interfere with route 38 service.  We used it on several fantrips, usually having to track down a auto owner who was blocking the tracks on Sundays.
>  
> Cheers
> John
> 
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > Please have a look at PRC Running Time Spec #4169, attached. While I =
> > unfortunately do not have a date for this, it is obviously before the =
> > abandonment of Rt. 38 as a separate route and clearly shows that on =
> > Saturdays there were trips which were run as 42/38 from Clearview Loop =
> > over the Beechview route. This is consistent with my recollection of =
> > operations in the early 1960s. How early 42/38 was so designated and =
> > signed, I do not know; however, I have a public timetable dated 4 =
> > September 1962 which shows this arrangement. However, cars were =
> > operated that way as far back as 1904. The 1914 route listing shows =
> > #312-Mt. Lebanon-Beechview but the destination sign for this route is =
> > shown as 42, not 42/38. There is no separate showing for a route =
> > operating to Dormont Jct. only, however, #312 had a variant-Neeld Avenue =
> > with destination sign 43 which may have in those years provided all the =
> > cutback service to Beechview. Also of note is route 304-Castle =
> > Shannon-Mt Lebanon, with a destination sign of 38. This was a through =
> > route through the tunnel to downtown. There is no listing for a =
> > separate transfer route which we later knew as 38A.
> > 
> > I agree that this shot is probably one of routine operations. Normal =
> > practice was for cars to change ends at Clearview, as to use the loop =
> > there could interfere with regular operations of looping Rt. 38 or 42/38 =
> > cars turning to return to downtown or South Hills Jct. Clearview loop =
> > was only used to turn cars coming in from Castle Shannon in emergency =
> > situations--and probably for the odd rail enthusiast tour!
> > 
> > Dwight
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: John Swindler=20
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org=20
> > Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; =
> > Conrad Misek ; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David =
> > Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; =
> > Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; =
> > Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; =
> > Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael =
> > Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; Raleigh =
> > Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ; Chris Gatermann =
> > ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; =
> > Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston =
> > Clark ; Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; =
> > Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles =
> > Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite =
> > Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; =
> > Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie =
> > Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son=20
> > Sent: Thursday, 12 August, 2010 23:26
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > For starters, not 42/38. 42/38 was created when route 38 abandoned as =
> > separate route circa 1961, long after 4322 was scrapped.
> > 
> > And not running on route 42 which terminated at Dormont Wye. This is =
> > the 38A layover at Clearview loop. This view is looking west towards =
> > Washington Blvd.
> > 
> > And Alfred St. is to right of this picture. Not visible at this =
> > angle. Pavement to right would have been used by the three Mt. Lebanon =
> > shuttle bus lines - Inglewood, Jefferson and Sunset Hills. They came =
> > down an alley to left of photographer
> > 
> > And what is the motorman doing??? Probably pulling the pole down for =
> > his next trip to Castle Shannon.
> > 
> > Perhaps not such a rare use after all.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> > > Subject: [PRCo] Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
> > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:29:16 -0400
> > > CC: biker4 at sbcglobal.net; atholtz at optonline.net; =
> > michael_t_greene at yahoo.com; mwntrolley at aol.com; crmisek at aol.com; =
> > baybridgecondo3 at aol.com; PFUHLER at MSN.COM; ecasey9631 at aol.com; =
> > lipizzansvt2 at aol.com; jwne at temple.edu; sparkyberadi at aol.com; =
> > jcgreller at hcia.org; randygluck1 at aol.com; chuchubob at yahoo.com; =
> > bhc1 at aol.com; maryobrien at charter.net; jamesboylan at compuserve.com; =
> > wja1933 at juno.com; brtpcc at mac.com; alexlvaughn at yahoo.com; nozze4 at att.net; =
> > newkirk at optonline.net; dukeoq at aol.com; it1569djn at earthlink.net; =
> > rush123 at cox.net; frgs4evr at aol.com; chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu; =
> > mrambojr at yahoo.com; twe2431 at sbcglobal.net; studedude43 at hotmail.com; =
> > cemuench2 at comcast.net; bbente at bellsouth.net; dadamor at aol.com; =
> > air2619 at aol.com; pirmann at quuxuum.org; ndc10169 at webtv.net; =
> > cgatermann at yahoo.com; r516169 at yahoo.com; kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net; =
> > raycrapo at prodigy.net; cmercado at rochester.rr.com; mhr62 at aol.com; =
> > jack.may at americomm.net; lewis.hitch at verizon.net; =
> > neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com; trolleydude1 at yahoo.c!
> > om; edhavens at cox.net; jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com; hp1944 at aol.com; =
> > jeidj at comcast.net; sbecker at pa-trolley.org; "isartorny"@verizon.net; =
> > rejmhj at netzero.net; cleverett at comcast.net; charles.greene99 at gmail.com; =
> > ronkup at hotmail.com; atsnate at comcast.net; mbernero at prodigy.net; =
> > cue37 at charter.net; waltk6 at optonline.net; urr316 at optonline.net; =
> > evan at tmny.org; haroldgolk at comcast.net; mlmummert at comcast.net; =
> > rjp500 at snet.net; bvolkmer at bellsouth.net; asisk at sbcglobal.net; =
> > cdennis220 at aol.com; hlwind384 at comcast.net; biged_IRT5543 at bresnan.net; =
> > tgatermann at gmail.com
> > > To: Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org
> > >=20
> > > The photograph forwarded with this e-mail was on Skip Gaterman's =
> > daily postcards. It's unusual because route 42 called for double-end =
> > cars. Anyone want to venture an opinion why a low 4300 would be =
> > running on Dormont? The only suggestion I might have is that there =
> > might have been 42/38 trips that terminated in Castle Shannon and then =
> > became shuttles.=20
> > > Or might it be a trip from South Hills Car House to Mount Lebanon to =
> > put the car in service? =20
> > >=20
> > > The location, by the way, is Washington Road at Alfred Street =
> > (Clearview Loop). It is the entrance to the loop from Washington Road. =
> > The building over the center door is on the northwest side of =
> > Washington Road. This I have confirmed from Bing Maps. All of these =
> > buildings exist today (or at the time the aerial photographs were made). =
> > =20
> > >=20
> > > Skip claims there was no identification on the photo other than it =
> > is a rare use of this type car. No kidding!!!!
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > > -- Type: image/jpeg
> > > -- Size: 79k (81648 bytes)
> > > -- URL : =
> > http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/M_PA_Pittsburgh_01.jp=
> > eg
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > =20
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > -- Type: image/jpeg
> > -- Size: 84k (86984 bytes)
> > -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Mail0002.JPG
> > 
> > 
> > 
>       
>