[PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
Phillip Clark Campbell
pcc_sr at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 14 16:10:44 EDT 2010
Mr.Long;
42/38 was displayed on the cars on Saturday daytime; it was
long ago on the roll sign eliminating a need for a window sign.
Both the 38-Mt.Lebanon and 42/38 operated concurrently
on these Saturdays.
Phil
________________________________
From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
To: Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net>; pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Fred
Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
Cc: Skip Gatermann <biker4 at sbcglobal.net>; Unknown Holtz
<atholtz at optonline.net>; Michael Greene <michael_t_greene at yahoo.com>; Matt Dawn
<mwntrolley at aol.com>; Conrad Misek <crmisek at aol.com>; Joe Bux
<baybridgecondo3 at aol.com>; Frank Pfuhler <pfuhler at msn.com>; E Casey
<ecasey9631 at aol.com>; Vic Gordon <lipizzansvt2 at aol.com>; David Dillard
<jwne at temple.edu>; John Sikorskie <sparkyberadi at aol.com>; Jim Greller
<jcgreller at hcia.org>; Randy Gluckman <randygluck1 at aol.com>; Bob Vogel
<chuchubob at yahoo.com>; Bradley Clark <bhc1 at aol.com>; Mary O'Brien
<maryobrien at charter.net>; Jimmy Boylan XX <jamesboylan at compuserve.com>; Bill
Armstrong <wja1933 at juno.com>; Richard Panse <brtpcc at mac.com>; Alex Vaughn
<alexlvaughn at yahoo.com>; Brad Noyes <nozze4 at att.net>; Bill Mangahas
<newkirk at optonline.net>; JJ Earl <dukeoq at aol.com>; Dave Neubauer
<it1569djn at earthlink.net>; Jack Rush XX <rush123 at cox.net>; Mark Goldfeder
<frgs4evr at aol.com>; Andrew Chalfen <chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu>; Michael Rambo Jr
<mrambojr at yahoo.com>; Ted Eickmann <twe2431 at sbcglobal.net>; Bill Paulus
<studedude43 at hotmail.com>; Muench <cemuench2 at comcast.net>; Bruce Bente
<bbente at bellsouth.net>; Raleigh Dadamo <dadamor at aol.com>; David Horwitz
<air2619 at aol.com>; David Pirmann <pirmann at quuxuum.org>; Neil Carlson
<ndc10169 at webtv.net>; Chris Gatermann <cgatermann at yahoo.com>; Robert Arce
<r516169 at yahoo.com>; KELVIN WILKE <kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net>; Raymond Crapo Jr
<raycrapo at prodigy.net>; Carlos Mercado <cmercado at rochester.rr.com>; Merill
Resnick <mhr62 at aol.com>; Lewis Hitch <lewis.hitch at verizon.net>; Michael Richmond
<neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com>; Thurston Clark
<trolleydude1 at yahoo.com>; Edward Havens <edhavens at cox.net>; Jeff Marinoff
<jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com>; Harry Pinsker <hp1944 at aol.com>; Joseph Eid
<jeidj at comcast.net>; Scott Becker <sbecker at pa-trolley.org>; Trolley One
<isartorny at verizon.net>; Russ Jackson <rejmhj at netzero.net>; C. K. Leverett
<cleverett at comcast.net>; Charles Greene <charles.greene99 at gmail.com>; Ronald
Kupin <ronkup at hotmail.com>; Nate Gerstein <atsnate at comcast.net>; Melvin Bernero
<mbernero at prodigy.net>; Favorite Daugher <cue37 at charter.net>; Trolley Two
<waltk6 at optonline.net>; Rich Parente <urr316 at optonline.net>; Evan Jennings
<evan at tmny.org>; Harold Golk <haroldgolk at comcast.net>; Matthew Mummert
<mlmummert at comcast.net>; Bob Paradise <rjp500 at snet.net>; Bill Volkmer
<bvolkmer at bellsouth.net>; Andrew Sisk <asisk at sbcglobal.net>; Charlie Dennis
<cdennis220 at aol.com>; Herald Wind <hlwind384 at comcast.net>; Edward Davis
<biged_irt5543 at bresnan.net>; #1 Son <tgatermann at gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 12:54:53 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
Jack
If I gave that impression, my choice of words was inept. Your recollection is
of course correct. The 42/38 service, so denominated in the TT (but perhaps not
on the roll sign, in which case a small card sign in the front window would have
been used) on Saturday was additive.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack May
To: Dwight Long ; pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org ; Fred Schneider
Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; Conrad Misek
; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David Dillard ; John
Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; Bradley Clark ; Mary
O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad
Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder
; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ;
Bruce Bente ; Raleigh Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ;
Chris Gatermann ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado
; Merill Resnick ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston Clark ; Edward
Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; Scott Becker ; Trolley One
; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein
; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings
; Harold Golk ; Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise !
; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1
Son
Sent: Saturday, 14 August, 2010 12:37
Subject: RE: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
After reading the correspondence as it came out, I was under the impression
that what was being said was that the inner portion of the 38 did not run on
Saturdays and service along the outer end in Mt. Lebanon was provided by 42/38
cars. My recollection was different, and it was proven by the attached
timetable: that 42 cars were extended southward from Dormont Jct. to serve Mt.
Lebanon's shopping district on Saturdays.
I visited Pittsburgh 5 or 6 times a year in those years (specifically to ride
its streetcars--and pick up a pound of chocolate fudge from Bolan's on Wood
Street), and my recollection is that the Saturday cars were numbered 42, not
42/38. But that was a long time ago and I may not be correct.
It is ironic that the line now goes underground through that section, with no
station.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Long [mailto:dwightlong at verizon.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 12:19 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org; Fred Schneider
Cc: Skip Gatermann; Unknown Holtz; Michael Greene; Matt Dawn; Conrad Misek;
Joe Bux; Frank Pfuhler; E Casey; Vic Gordon; David Dillard; John Sikorskie; Jim
Greller; Randy Gluckman; Bob Vogel; Bradley Clark; Mary O'Brien; Jimmy Boylan
XX; Bill Armstrong; Richard Panse; Alex Vaughn; Brad Noyes; Bill Mangahas; JJ
Earl; Dave Neubauer; Jack Rush XX; Mark Goldfeder; Andrew Chalfen; Michael Rambo
Jr; Ted Eickmann; Bill Paulus; Muench; Bruce Bente; Raleigh Dadamo; David
Horwitz; David Pirmann; Neil Carlson; Chris Gatermann; Robert Arce; KELVIN
WILKE; Raymond Crapo Jr; Carlos Mercado; Merill Resnick; Jack May; Lewis Hitch;
Michael Richmond; Thurston Clark; Edward Havens; Jeff Marinoff; Harry Pinsker;
Joseph Eid; Scott Becker; Trolley One; Russ Jackson; C. K. Leverett; Charles
Greene; Ronald Kupin; Nate Gerstein; Melvin Bernero; Favorite Daugher; Trolley
Two; Rich Parente; Evan Jennings; Harold Golk; Matthew Mummert; Bob Paradise;
Bill Volkmer; Andrew Sisk; Charlie Dennis; Herald Wi!
nd; Edward Davis; #1 Son
Subject: Re: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
John
The copy I sent you yesterday is indeed (one piece) from a schedule set for
the route and, perhaps not surprisingly, I got it from John Baxter. It may well
be the last one issued before Rt 38 was changed in May 1963 to eliminate the
operation on West Liberty Avenue . I was away from Pgh from mid-1960 to
December 1962 and do not believe I obtained this before I left. In like manner,
the 4 September 1962 public timetable, reproduced here for you, may have been
the last public TT. I have a bunch of them and most likely obtained them as
"worthless" at the time of elimination of 38 as a separate route.
As you can see, the 42/38 service was daylight on Saturday only, but ran as
such in owl hours other days. This will also answer your question about 38 being
a separate route (most of the time). I don't think this TT reflects Drake or
Shannon cars which may have used the Beechview line in counter-rush hour flow.
You are correct that there was a crossover just inbound from Dormont Jct. I
have pictures of at least one PERC tour car using it and the tail of the Dormont
wye to do just what you say. However, I cannot recall this ever being done
routinely. When we did it on our tours, there was a lot of digging and
"persuading" the points to move to permit this route!
Your recollection of 42 only operating (during daytime) on Sundays to the wye
tallies with the 1962 schedule. Also, workday trips reversed here as well.
What the schedule does NOT show is any Rt. 43 service. I am guessing by that
time that Neeld loop was only used to put late cars back onto schedule when they
had a follower to pick up pax intending to travel beyond. Your observation from
the 20s-era track map (which I do not have and have never seen) would jibe
perfectly with the 1914 use of Neeld Avenue 43 terminus as the base for
Beechview service in that era.
Many of the routes which are identified in the 1914 route listing by PRC
3-digit route numbers do not show destination sign numbers in that publication.
The ones that do not have destination sign numbers, aside from the interurbans
and interurban local lines, are indeed "transfer cars" or otherwise non-trunk
routes. I cannot answer your question about 55 and 56 except to say that
latter-day 55, 56, 57 and 58 all had the same destination sign numbers in the
1914 publication. I cannot, however, find a listing for what we knew as Rt.
59?! Maybe my eyes have played tricks on me, but I just don't see it. Surely
it must have been built and in operation by then?
I know exactly where 4322 was posed for the photo. Using that bit of track
was SOP when 38A was operated as a shuttle, this to avoid tying up regular 38
cars by using the Clearview loop to turn 38A shuttles (which also involved a
messy back up move--there was no wye connection there as there was in a similar
arrangement at Riverview).
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: John Swindler
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org ; Fred Schneider
Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; Conrad Misek
; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David Dillard ; John
Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; Bradley Clark ; Mary
O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad
Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder
; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ;
Bruce Bente ; Raleigh Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ;
Chris Gatermann ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado
; Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston Clark ;
Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; Scott Becker ;
Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles Greene ; Ronald Kupin ;
Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ;
Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; Matthew Mummert ; Bo!
b Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward
Davis ; #1 Son
Sent: Friday, 13 August, 2010 13:10
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
Hi Dwight
This is another instance where I wish I had had the insight to ask a lot more
questions of John Baxter while he was still alive, particularly in early 1960s.
He was out next door neighbor during 1950s, and we blame him for my electric
railfan interest.
In particular, this looks like something used internally within the schedule
department. (wish I'd asked John B. for a complete set of all forms used by PRC
schedule department)
Concerning your public timetable dtd 9/4/62, does it show 38 as a separate
route, or was the outer end already combined with 42? I should have a circa
1960 schedule downstairs which might show if the 42/38 routing was for getting
cars to Tunnel carhouse, or for late evening/night service. PRC watched their
nickels.
When W. Liberty Ave. section of route 38 abandoned, the outbound 42 connection
to Washington Rd. was changed from single to double track. Also, I think there
was a crossover in W. Liberty inbound of Dormont Wye. This would allow an
outbound 42 car to go inbound on W. Liberty.
Most of my recollection is of the 42/38 operation. route 38 was already gone
as a separate entity. But there is the memory that Beechview operated only to
Dormont Wye on Sundays, circa 1960. During Sunday pass riding, when my 42 car
reached end of line around noon, I'd retire to Isaly's across the street from
Dormont Wye for a 25 cent chocolate milk shake.
According to 1920s track map, in the early years, 42 was single track with
passing sidings Neeld Ave. to Dormont Wye (Junction). There was a passing
siding at Potomac. Guess a lot had to do with how the area developed.
As for route numbers, they appear around 1914, probably to make various routes
easier to identify in downtown, E. Liberty and Oakland. Initially the low floor
cars could display two numbers. It didn't take long, according to some PUC
records, for route consolidations to occur, freeing up some numbers. As for
outlying shuttle routes, they didn't need number - the public knew where the car
was destined. "Donora" sufficed up to the end. I've wondered about the early
1920s low floor purchase effect on route numbering. Were 55 and 56 among the
last routes to get low floors, accounting for use of 55A and 56A for short
turns??
Back to Clearview Loop - car 4322 is on a short piece of track that would not
interfere with route 38 service. We used it on several fantrips, usually having
to track down a auto owner who was blocking the tracks on Sundays.
Cheers
John
>
> John
>
> Please have a look at PRC Running Time Spec #4169, attached. While I =
> unfortunately do not have a date for this, it is obviously before the =
> abandonment of Rt. 38 as a separate route and clearly shows that on =
> Saturdays there were trips which were run as 42/38 from Clearview Loop =
> over the Beechview route. This is consistent with my recollection of =
> operations in the early 1960s. How early 42/38 was so designated and =
> signed, I do not know; however, I have a public timetable dated 4 =
> September 1962 which shows this arrangement. However, cars were =
> operated that way as far back as 1904. The 1914 route listing shows =
> #312-Mt. Lebanon-Beechview but the destination sign for this route is =
> shown as 42, not 42/38. There is no separate showing for a route =
> operating to Dormont Jct. only, however, #312 had a variant-Neeld Avenue =
> with destination sign 43 which may have in those years provided all the =
> cutback service to Beechview. Also of note is route 304-Castle =
> Shannon-Mt Lebanon, with a destination sign of 38. This was a through =
> route through the tunnel to downtown. There is no listing for a =
> separate transfer route which we later knew as 38A.
>
> I agree that this shot is probably one of routine operations. Normal =
> practice was for cars to change ends at Clearview, as to use the loop =
> there could interfere with regular operations of looping Rt. 38 or 42/38 =
> cars turning to return to downtown or South Hills Jct. Clearview loop =
> was only used to turn cars coming in from Castle Shannon in emergency =
> situations--and probably for the odd rail enthusiast tour!
>
> Dwight
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: John Swindler=20
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org=20
> Cc: Skip Gatermann ; Unknown Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Dawn ; =
> Conrad Misek ; Joe Bux ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David =
> Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; =
> Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; =
> Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; =
> Dave Neubauer ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael =
> Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Bill Paulus ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; Raleigh =
> Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ; Chris Gatermann =
> ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; =
> Merill Resnick ; Jack May ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston =
> Clark ; Edward Havens ; Jeff Marinoff ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; =
> Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; Russ Jackson ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles =
> Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite =
> Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; =
> Matthew Mummert ; Bob Paradise ; Bill Volkmer ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie =
> Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son=20
> Sent: Thursday, 12 August, 2010 23:26
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
>
>
>
>
> For starters, not 42/38. 42/38 was created when route 38 abandoned as =
> separate route circa 1961, long after 4322 was scrapped.
>
> And not running on route 42 which terminated at Dormont Wye. This is =
> the 38A layover at Clearview loop. This view is looking west towards =
> Washington Blvd.
>
> And Alfred St. is to right of this picture. Not visible at this =
> angle. Pavement to right would have been used by the three Mt. Lebanon =
> shuttle bus lines - Inglewood, Jefferson and Sunset Hills. They came =
> down an alley to left of photographer
>
> And what is the motorman doing??? Probably pulling the pole down for =
> his next trip to Castle Shannon.
>
> Perhaps not such a rare use after all.
>
> Cheers
> John
>
>
>
>
> > From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> > Subject: [PRCo] Pittsburgh 4322 from Gaterman file 409
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:29:16 -0400
> > CC: biker4 at sbcglobal.net; atholtz at optonline.net; =
> michael_t_greene at yahoo.com; mwntrolley at aol.com; crmisek at aol.com; =
> baybridgecondo3 at aol.com; PFUHLER at MSN.COM; ecasey9631 at aol.com; =
> lipizzansvt2 at aol.com; jwne at temple.edu; sparkyberadi at aol.com; =
> jcgreller at hcia.org; randygluck1 at aol.com; chuchubob at yahoo.com; =
> bhc1 at aol.com; maryobrien at charter.net; jamesboylan at compuserve.com; =
> wja1933 at juno.com; brtpcc at mac.com; alexlvaughn at yahoo.com; nozze4 at att.net; =
> newkirk at optonline.net; dukeoq at aol.com; it1569djn at earthlink.net; =
> rush123 at cox.net; frgs4evr at aol.com; chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu; =
> mrambojr at yahoo.com; twe2431 at sbcglobal.net; studedude43 at hotmail.com; =
> cemuench2 at comcast.net; bbente at bellsouth.net; dadamor at aol.com; =
> air2619 at aol.com; pirmann at quuxuum.org; ndc10169 at webtv.net; =
> cgatermann at yahoo.com; r516169 at yahoo.com; kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net; =
> raycrapo at prodigy.net; cmercado at rochester.rr.com; mhr62 at aol.com; =
> jack.may at americomm.net; lewis.hitch at verizon.net; =
> neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com; trolleydude1 at yahoo.c!
> om; edhavens at cox.net; jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com; hp1944 at aol.com; =
> jeidj at comcast.net; sbecker at pa-trolley.org; "isartorny"@verizon.net; =
> rejmhj at netzero.net; cleverett at comcast.net; charles.greene99 at gmail.com; =
> ronkup at hotmail.com; atsnate at comcast.net; mbernero at prodigy.net; =
> cue37 at charter.net; waltk6 at optonline.net; urr316 at optonline.net; =
> evan at tmny.org; haroldgolk at comcast.net; mlmummert at comcast.net; =
> rjp500 at snet.net; bvolkmer at bellsouth.net; asisk at sbcglobal.net; =
> cdennis220 at aol.com; hlwind384 at comcast.net; biged_IRT5543 at bresnan.net; =
> tgatermann at gmail.com
> > To: Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org
> >=20
> > The photograph forwarded with this e-mail was on Skip Gaterman's =
> daily postcards. It's unusual because route 42 called for double-end =
> cars. Anyone want to venture an opinion why a low 4300 would be =
> running on Dormont? The only suggestion I might have is that there =
> might have been 42/38 trips that terminated in Castle Shannon and then =
> became shuttles.=20
> > Or might it be a trip from South Hills Car House to Mount Lebanon to =
> put the car in service? =20
> >=20
> > The location, by the way, is Washington Road at Alfred Street =
> (Clearview Loop). It is the entrance to the loop from Washington Road. =
> The building over the center door is on the northwest side of =
> Washington Road. This I have confirmed from Bing Maps. All of these =
> buildings exist today (or at the time the aerial photographs were made). =
> =20
> >=20
> > Skip claims there was no identification on the photo other than it =
> is a rare use of this type car. No kidding!!!!
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > -- Type: image/jpeg
> > -- Size: 79k (81648 bytes)
> > -- URL : =
> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/M_PA_Pittsburgh_01.jp=
> eg
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> =20
>
>
>
>
> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> -- Type: image/jpeg
> -- Size: 84k (86984 bytes)
> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Mail0002.JPG
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