[PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Edward H. Lybarger
trams2 at comcast.net
Sat Jul 3 14:00:45 EDT 2010
That's my intent, but one never knows...
What I really need is someone who can read the microfilm at the McKeesport
Daily News. It's a daunting job, and you can't just walk in off the street
and ask to do it. But we would have access if we had a reliable reader, as
we did at Tarentum when Dennis went through the Valley News/Dispatch. But
Dennis would need a helicopter and a year or two to read MDN!
McKeesport had a funny attitude toward traction companies, and I'd like to
learn why. Was it money? Was it ego? Was it corporate misbehavior? Also
I'd like to learn more about Highland Grove Traction Company, a standard
gauge operation according to McGraw.
Also there is more at the PA PUC...complaint dockets, municipal contract
dockets, and who knows what else that I haven't got into.
Then there are the right-of-way deeds at the Uniontown, Greensburg,
Pittsburgh and Kittanning courthouses. Probably something in Washington,
too, since it went to McDonald. I've read and copied maybe half of the
Fayette County deeds, but haven't looked at corporate charters or other
records there. The deeds are interesting because they deal with actual
people and their demands in return for the r/w...and the prices they got.
So far, the low is zero per lineal foot, the highest is almost $13. No
wonder the real estate guys keep everything so close to their chests. Other
niceties includes stations, cattle passes, fencing, lighting at the
stations, free transportation, and so on.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Dwight
Long
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 1:39 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Ed
Please, please write the book first. It you need any help on grunt work for
so doing, I volunteer!
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward H. Lybarger
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Sent: Saturday, 03 July, 2010 12:59
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Correct. We have relevant pages of the PUC docket in the library; I don't
have copies at home so am not exact on the date. 1951 rings true, though.
They had decided in 1948 to leave the trolley business and wrote the
railways company down to scrap value either that year or in 1949. Again,
the news clippings are there instead of here. Maybe once I clear out the
hearing aid collection there will be room for copies of things like this.
The clippings would require eight and a half lineal feet, the PUC dockets
another foot. Technically they belong to me anyway, as I haven't formally
turned them over to PTM (and likely won't until I either write the book or
croak, whichever comes first). I have donated the original Xeroxes from
the
microfilm, though, from which I made the copies before putting them in the
library.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Dwight
Long
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 12:44 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Ed
As I recall, it was sold as WP was winding down all its investment in rail
properties. It was either 1951 or early 1952. Prior to that it was just a
relatively small stream of income for WP that required no particular
effort
or expense on WP's part (after an initial dispute between WP and PRC was
settled),
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward H. Lybarger
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Sent: Saturday, 03 July, 2010 09:11
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
10-4, Dwight. I think I provided some operational history of this route
to
the list once upon a time...West Penn owned it as far as Hamilton Avenue
(plus a spur there) but operated it only for a short time circa
1920-1924
while PRCo was embroiled in a municipal franchise dispute. West Penn
finally sold the track to PRC in the early 1950s.
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
Dwight
Long
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 2:20 AM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Ed
PRC had a habit of recycling destination sign route numbers. The Rt 97
to
which I was referring was the McKeesport-Duquesne line. The number
apparently was transferred to the Wilmerding route after the Duquesne
local
line was abandoned, and after the Wilmerding route, 1914 PRC route 408
(destination sign route 98--again to be recycled in the 50s!) had been
cut
back from Glassport to the Tenth Ward.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward H. Lybarger
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Sent: Friday, 02 July, 2010 14:11
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Route 97 was the second of two lines between McKeesport and
Wilmerding...and
the one that put the ancestor-of-West Penn line out of business. The
McKeesport, Duquesne & Wilmerding route was circuitous while the one
that
was Route 97 was very direct.
The MD&W line was written up in Street Railway Review in 1894 at page
170.
It's online for those who would like to read it. The line closed
prior
to
the 1904 consolidation. I have the date in a news clipping but not
here.
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
Dwight
Long
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:38 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
John
Rt 53 Carrick used the Tenth Street Bridge and then Carson Street to
South
18th Street in later years. In earlier years it operated on Carson
from
South 18th to South 22nd, thence over the Brady Street (South 22nd
St.)
Bridge to Forbes and into the Triangle by that street. This was PRC
Rt.
305
of 1914.
In latter years it was possible to short turn Rt. 50 cars (or special
moves)
at South 18th Street and South 22nd Street. In early days there was a
maze
of trackage on the South Side and other permutations were possible.
There
was one regular route shown turning at 22nd in the 1914 route
listing--PRC
route 301A--destination sign 51 (later used on Bon Air shuttle car).
At
this
time what we know as the "regular" Carson Street route was PRC route
301,
destination sign (then as at the end) 50. Then there was PRC route
310,
Carson Street via 10th Street Bridge, destination sign 52. The route
guide
does not show the outer destination for this route, so it is possible
that
it was operated with double end cars and went to South 36th Street,
which
would make sense in view of the later destination sign number for the
shuttle car, which is not shown in the 1914 guide. The shuttle from
South
30th to South 36th Streets was Rt. 52 in its last days and lasted
until
2
August 1950.
The South 36th Street to Hays shuttle or "transfer car" was shown as
route
302 in the 1914 compendium. I do not have information as to when it
was
discontinued, but suspect prior to the Depression. Fred? BTW, in
1914
route 313 was destination sign 39--Brookline!
As to Pirl Street and Rt 97, I don't think there was any connection,
as
Rt.
97 operated into downtown McKeesport, either to the Ringgold Street
terminal
(owing to its ancestry as a West Penn route) or to a short turn
location
at
the B&O station. And it was gone by 1931, while Fred shows the Pirl
Street
loop as opening in 1938. {RC Rt 407, destination sign 56, turned at
the
McKeesport car house until it closed, whenever that was (dates
conflict
between 1936 and 1937). The loop was needed as there was no practical
place
to turn single end cars on 407/56 after the 10th Ward once the car
house
was
lost as a turnaround point. Until it opened, pax coming into
McKeesport
via
the Calhoun Park route had to transfer to a Glassport car or
Wilmerding
bus
in order to get to downtown McKeesport.
I recall clearly the Brentwood Loop being taken over by the Boron (we
called
it "Moron") gas station. There was a nice waiting shelter there prior
to
this with a newsstand incorporated into it, which was a casualty of
the
gas
station construction.
I do not have any recollection of gas stations at either Pirl Street
or
South 30th Street, but that does not mean they were not there.
Perhaps
they
were installed after the tram era. However, I do recall a gas station
(I
think this one was Boron also, but would have to dig out some old
slides
to
verify this) being constructed on the site of the Glenwood Car House,
about
the time Rt. 56 was bustituted.
Hope this helps.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: John Swindler
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
Sent: Thursday, 01 July, 2010 21:53
Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
Hi Fred
I think the question concerned PRC leasing terminal property for gas
stations. In addition to Carrick loop, did this also include Pirl St.
and
perhaps 30th St. loop????
And as for route 313, when was the service cut back from Hays?
Also,
service to 36th St. continued into 1920s - and perhaps longer. In
later
years it was a shuttle between 30th and 36th. There were four routes
on
Carson - two via Smithfield St. bridge and two via 10th St. One
short-turned around 22nd St., another at 30th, another at 36th and
fourth
either at 30th (which was a car barn) or went to Carrick. (It's been
awhile
since I looked at this route info., and too lazy to search in
basement.)
And as for Pirl St., 98 also terminated there. Pirl St. might have
become
needed when 97 was abandoned or when McKeesport closed. Have you
checked
the property deeds in Allegheny Co. Court house for when property
acquired
by PRC???
There is a pix on digital history site of a low floor car exiting
southbound from McKeesport car house.
Cheers
John
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:08:31 -0400
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>
> Route 313 was shortened from 36th to 30th when single-end PAYE
cars
were
installed February 19, 1913. It remained there until February 26, 1966
when
abandoned.
>
> Route 407 ran out of McKeesport car house until it closed. March
15,
1937 shorteneded to 10th Ward, McKeesport because of bridge repairs.
Extended to what may have been a new Pirl Street loop on March 9,
1938.
Last
full day of service August 31, 1963.
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:43 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Wasn't 56 McKeesport at Pirl St. another??? What about the 50
Carson
at 30th St.???? (75% sure of former, only 25% (guess) of latter - its
been
a
long time)
> >
> >
> >
> > PRC was just out to make a buck anyway they could.
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: mrb190 at pitt.edu
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:05:12 -0400
> >> Subject: [PRCo] A streetcar loops that ends at a gas station
> >>
> >> Ironic, eh? Anyway, this is a video of the terminus of the 53
Carrick:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrbhYcrev-Q
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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