[PRCo] Re: Washington Interurban Forensics

Thu Dec 8 11:08:40 EST 2011

This photo location is the point at which the line comes back onto the
street heading south into Houston.  Banfield Siding was a very short
distance north of this spot; Alexander, which replaced Banfield in 1938, was
farther north yet and wasn't close to houses or a major street.  Banfield
wouldn't have been there when the photo was taken.

I'm sticking with "3761 SB at Allenport Siding" for the other one unless
there is conclusive evidence against it.

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Phillip
Clark Campbell
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:53 AM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Washington Interurban Forensics

Mr.Lybarger;

I was aware of the single track south of the substation; I also knew there
wasn't a siding with a street behind it like the photo.  I didn't make that
clear.  I am unclear where prw started south of Ashland Avenue.

Wasn't there a siding at Alexander which used to be at Banfield?
There would be intermittent street all the way through Houston.
Grant Street was not paved but it was a street so assume Nachod signals
here.  I lived in Charleroi but rode the Washington interurban on occasion.

I believe this photo is somewhere between Ashland and Arnold:
http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/M0555%20Wash%20OB%20Hous
ton%201950xxxx%20Unk.jpg

Could you please indicate the precise location?

This photo was relatively easy to find with an appropriate file name; so
many names are totally random.

With 3761 we have a photo on a known system which remains unidentifed.  The
topography changes considerably with time; cutting the Grant St hill
considerably is evidence.  Perspective over 1-years, different lenses on
cameras, different depth-of-fields etc. can be fooling.  Trying to identify
the E-McKeesport photo was anything but orderly and methodical -- start with
the "givens" and then rule-out.  It takes field work, not hunches.

Phil

________________________________
 From: Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net>
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 8:43 AM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Washington Interurban Forensics

All street track in Canonsburg south of the substation area on Adams Avenue
(that is, on Pike Street) was single track.  There was Nachod signaling
between Richfol and Arnold Siding (beyond Houston), but nothing that looked
like this.

I keep coming back to Allenport Siding on the Charleroi route.  Northbound,
the line went into Nachod territory there, coming off PRW.  But I don't know
exactly what the area looked like on July 27, 1952, when the photo was made.
Schematically (signal-wise), it's the only location where the signals and
the topography/geography coincide.  There was some re-arrangement of highway
in this area, but field work is definitely needed.

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Phillip
Clark Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 10:19 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Washington Interurban Forensics

Mr.Long;

A little information for clarity.  Someone suggested a location not far
south of Drake trestle.  With paved track in the background this is
impossible isn't it.  The reference to Canonsburg is to indicate the first
location with paved track, "not" to identify a 

possible location for the photo.  Additionally, Canonsburg is double track
isn't it; track in the photo is single in the street.

This photo was extensively discussed some time back; I saw it in the
archives.  No one was able to identify it at that time; it was thought to be
on the Charleroi interurban.

The 38A does not have street running does it.  It can't be there.

The Interurbans are US&S as you mention which includes Charleroi.  There are
locations where nachod seems to do the job as well or where complete block
signalling is not needed.
Certainly street operations rule out US&S; short sections of single track
might over rule this need as well.  There are many locations along
Washington where Nachod are used and street running is not immediately
apparent.

http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/02-1614%2036+%20194605xx
%201.jpg

Finding these pictures is difficult.

Phil

________________________________
From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 6:20 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Washington Interurban Forensics

Phil

If it is Canonsburg, it has to be on the south side of Canonsburg, inasmuch
as the entry to the north side was over Richfol trestle.

If in fact we are looking at street trackage in the distant background, that

would explain the Nachod OHL contactor above the track next to the car. 
Perhaps someone could check out the south end of Canonsburg to see if there
is a fit.  That is about the only place on the Washington line I can think
of that might work.  Otherwise it may be, as Ed says, on the Charleroi
line--a couple of locations there might fit this shot.

Sent from my portable computer where all I have to go by is my memory--no
maps or other data!

Dwight

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Clark Campbell" <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 3:32 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Washington Interurban Forensics

> Mr.Iannucci;
> There is street operation in the background on single track. The first 
> street operation south of Drake trestle was in Canonsburg, double 
> track.
>
>
> Phil
>
> ________________________________
>>
>> Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
>> In the archives is a picture of an old car that no one on this list 
>> can identify isn't there. It is reportedly on the Interurban lines. A 
>> PCC was also photographed at the same location. It is tedious trying 
>> to find the photo in the archives. This looks like the photo in the 
>> archives, again, location unidentified by anyone:
>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/wvp009.htm
>>
> From: Bob Iannucci <bob at rail.com>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 1:09 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Washington Interurban Forensics
>
> This is a really intriguing picture - I had never seen it before. The 
> lay of the roadbed behind the car, the direction of the track, and the 
> location of the poles match a location in Upper St. Clair, just 
> southwest of the former Drake Trestle.   The area is now called 
> Wiltshire Park. Analysis of old maps shows that a walking path in that 
> park was once part of the roadbed of the former Washington Interurban 
> line. On my trip to Pittsburgh this summer, I shot photos of that 
> area. The poles are long gone, but there is still pretty clear 
> evidence of them on the right hand side (relative to the direction in 
> which the car in the picture is traveling) of the former roadbed. The 
> widening of the walking path in that area now corresponds to the 
> passing siding we see in the picture from the 1940's.
> Can anyone say if there was a passing siding just southwest of the 
> Trestle? The area is overgrown now, but when I was growing up in Upper St.
> Clair in the 1960's, this area was just brush as in the 1940's photo.
>
> I've made up the attached for your review - to give you some context 
> and to invite analysis of these two pictures. Were they shot at the 
> same location? At present, the evidence is somewhat thin. Any 
> information to prove or disprove this will be appreciated.
>
> If anyone can find the picture of the PCC taken at the same location 
> (as mentioned above), I'd really appreciate it. Also, I am looking for 
> *any* photos of the former Washington interurban line in the area from 
> Drake to the southwest edge of Upper St. Clair.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
>
>
http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Interurban%20Forensics.p
df