[PRCo] Re: PRCo Charleroi CH track

[Dwight Long]

Ed

That suggests that southbounds terminating at the car house entered it from the north rather from the south, and then if they were going to return north, they would have to use the east (outside) track to become properly pointed.  This they could do without having to back into McKean Avenue and so it makes sense.  But they could also have entered the car house at the south end and then backed into the track on which they were to be stabled—again not having to go out onto McKean Avenue for the switching move.

Since your suggestion would not require a pole change from west to east wire, it makes more sense operationally.  It also eliminates the need for barn personnel to ensure the pole did not pick the wrong road’s trolley wire when backing off the fan.

I was never in Charleroi during the hours when these moves were made, so all my suggestions are based upon my fertile imagination, not fact!

Dwight

From: Edward H. Lybarger 
Sent: Wednesday, 28 December, 2011 13:15
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org 
Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRCo Charleroi CH track
I think the second wire was there simply to keep a northbound car going on route from the car house out of the way of the signals.  It just began a few hundred feet shy of the double track where it would be needed anyway.

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Dwight Long
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 12:48 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRCo Charleroi CH track

Phil

OK, I’ll buy your theory that the second wire was for car house moves only.  It is always good to have visual evidence to support one’s theory, and the decent blow-up of the northbound service car turning into the barn seems to support your theory of the case.

Assuming that to be true, how did southbound PCCs that terminated at Charleroi get their poles onto the east wire?  Was there some sort of electric trolley frog, similar to a TC frog, that enabled this, presumably just north of the north access track to the barn fan?  Or did the operator have to manually swing the pole—presumably as part of the process of moving the point at the south car house lead—that does not appear to be a power-operated switch.  Were there so few of these moves that it was not a major hindrance?

The last two trips from Pittsburgh south, the midnight and 01:00 trips, terminated at Charleroi.  However, these could have made up the first two pull-outs to Roscoe the next morning—the 04:15 and 04:45 Charleroi to Roscoe, so would have been properly pointed upon arrival at Charleroi if put into the car house using the north access track rather than the south. On the other hand, since these two trips do not show as coming back north as revenue runs, it may be that they were run with DE Jones cars, in which case there would have been no issue with turning.  The first (public) timetabled trip of the new day from Roscoe is the 05:49, which was formed by the first southbound trip of the new day from Pittsburgh, the 03:30 trip, which arrived Roscoe at 05:40.
There were five timetabled Charleroi-Pittsburgh AM weekday trips and only two of these can be accounted for by southbound trips terminating at the car house, with one accounted for by the 00:19 northbound from Roscoe, which is the only such shown as a scheduled pull-in.  This leaves two Charleroi-Pittsburgh trips unbalanced in the timetable, unless they were made up by deadhead returns of the early AM Roscoe trippers.   There was obviously a lot of deadhead mileage—which may actually have carried revenue pax—that is not shown in the public timetable.  One would need an employees timetable, which I do not have, to make sense of this. It is conceivable, however, that most of this could be accomplished without having to make the awkward backing moves which you described.  These would be particularly onerous if made in the dark!

Another omission from the public timetable (1 June 1952 issue used for these citations) is the feed-on and car house return trips for the scheduled Riverview trippers, three inbound AM and three outbound PM schedules.  These may well have run via Mt. Lebanon, but in any event are not shown in the public timetable. Neither are the feed-on and car house returns for the Riverview-Donora service.

As to the signal issue, any car backing out into McKean Avenue to go south off the north car house lead would of necessity have to have the pole on the west wire, as the east wire, per the fot, only accessed the south car house lead.  The contactor for the Nachod was on the west wire and can be seen in the fot.  The track north from that contactor was unsignaled to the south end of Lockview double track, so no signaling issue there.

It would appear to me that the two late night southbound trips that terminated at Charleroi and presumably made up the two early AM Roscoe trippers would have backed out into McKean Avenue, rather than using the south car house lead in the “wrong” way, because if they did the latter they would miss the Nachod contactor, which was north of the south lead switch from the south.  The one northbound pull-in from Roscoe could not have been stabled on the siding, as it had a follower which ran through.  But it would have been properly pointed to make up one of the Charleroi-originating early AM Pittsburgh trips, and would not have had to be turned, if stabled on any other barn track.

Hopefully this all makes some sense.  We really need a combination of employees timetable and car house assignment sheet or sheets to be sure of what the actual operating practice was.

Dwight


From: Phillip Clark Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, 28 December, 2011 10:38
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRCo Charleroi CH track I am not sure I understand your observations.  These tracks appear in maps and many photos don't they.  The photographer is facing south.  Donora locals leave and return to the yard using this track.  As the Car House was used as 'part' of a siding the northbound interurban left the Car House to continue its trip to Pittsburgh using these tracks.
The gantlet overhead is only at the barn for shop usage as shown by the enclosed photo.  The dual contactors in the other wire reveal the track is unidirectional for the siding; interurban 1719 turning into the barn is doing so as part of its revenue run.  There is another photo somewhere showing a PCC Interurban leaving the yard from the Car House back onto the main using these very tracks isn't there.


Charleroi housed Interurbans over night so they could go to Roscoe on pullout.  Those cars pulling in the previous evening from Roscoe would be facing north--all interurbans are SE--how did they turn them to be ready for service going south?  Several ways:  NB car goes straight thru instead of turning into the yard, throws the point (which may need plugged if it is a spring return switch to insure it is always set correctly for service,) place the trolley pole on the gantlet wire, then back around the barn to the ladder track on the north side of the yard.
There are other more involved ways.

This then begs: how do the interurban cars leave the yard to head south?  'I am told' with US&S signals a car can use either side of a siding and all signals shall set correctly. Prc always operates to the right through a siding--if a car needed to use the left track thru the siding all signals still set correctly -- all opposing signals go to red as the car enters single track.  I am not sure iff nachods operate this way as wiring from the contactors seem more dedicated.  If the nachods have a parallel operation to US&S style control then the cars can be parked to leave the barn on the northbound 'siding' track in the barn.  Otherwise the interurbans need to back out on the ladder track in the picture you supplied, then head south making sure the trolley is on the correct wire to activate the contactors for the nachods.


The Car House was not always used as a siding was it.  One of the tracks on the south was added for the siding, most likely the curve 1719 is using.
Mr.Phillips sent me drawings of this if I can find them.  I don't remember the date of the addition.  Otherwise, as Mr.Lybarger indicates, the track here remained essentially as built.

I would hazard a guess that the siding in the Car House was instituted after the West-side cars quit service.



 
Phil



________________________________
From: "Lattner, Raymond" <rlattner at pa.gov>
To: "pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org" <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 11:25 AM
Subject: [PRCo] PRCo Charleroi CH track
 
Hello, I was reviewing the latest  Charleroi PRCoTPTrackMaps and noticed there was no mention of any tracks at the front end of the Charleroi Car House that lead to the left (see attached pic) as you are looking at the CH.
Any idea about this track or tracks?

Regards

Ray

http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/wvp331.jpg


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