[PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain

[John Swindler]

Those definitions were worked out by consultants, circa 1970, for UMTA.   The reports were available at a Transit Exhibit at Dullas Airport during summer of 1972.  APTA and UMTA do not have the staff to create definitions.  
 
The definition I particularly liked was the definition of a light rail car:  a two section articulated car with three trucks.  (because this is what UMTA was in process of funding for MBTA and Muni)  I always liked to agitate by asking about the GT-4 cars in Stuttgart.
 
And as for standards, as a respected consultant (and Fred knows who I am quoting from New Jersey) recently observed: "public transit is an industry without any standards." 
 
I saw no reason to argue this opinion.

Cheers
John 
 
 
 
> From: hrbran at cavtel.net
> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 21:44:11 -0500
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> 
> APTA is the "trade organization" of public transportation in the US, Canada,
> and Mexico. Nothing more, nothing less.
> Also, if you read what I wrote you would have read, "....politicians are
> EXEMPT FROM THE TRUTH, " It was a polite way of saying they are not honest.
> 
> 
> The original reply was to inform you that DEFINITIONS of such items as Light
> Rail, Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, Surface Bus, Bus Rapid Transit, Electric
> Trolley Bus, Trolley Bus, etc have been worked out by APTA and are generally
> used throughout the transit industry. It was not meant to put you on the
> defensive.
> 
> .
> 
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 20:30, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>wrote:
> 
> > Then how come the FTA and FRA aren't listening? How can APTA be the
> > official voice for something run by politicians, whom you just said are
> > exempt? The entire industry is political. Nothing today is apolitical.
> > There are no private light rail lines.
> >
> >
> > On Mar 8, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> >
> > > The UK is not in North America, politicians are exempt from the truth,
> > San
> > > Diego calls their light rail a trolley because its a local marketing logo
> > > just as "T" is a Pittsburgh local marketing logo , and yes, light rail,
> > > while it has the capability of moving in "heavy mixed traffic", does not
> > > have to. APTA is the official voice of mass transit in North America and
> > > does not divide itself by different modes controlled by different US
> > > Government agencies. No, I am not confused, APTA has made it crystal
> > > clear.
> > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 17:52, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> APTA is official? Britain has their own definition. Each politician
> > has
> > >> his idea? San Diego calls it a trolley. Russ Jackson tells me that
> > light
> > >> rail has to be capable of moving in street traffic. But if we make a
> > >> mistake and say commuter rail, then the FRA jumps in and claims
> > jurisdiction
> > >> instead of the FTA in this country ... that is why the Austin project
> > didn't
> > >> get off the ground for over a year after the planned opening date. You
> > see
> > >> it was light rail running as commuter rail on a national railroad ...
> > but if
> > >> you call it light rail (like New Jersey Transit's River line), then you
> > keep
> > >> the Federal Railroad Administration out of the picture and their buff
> > >> strength requirements are not applicable when you build cars. You only
> > >> have to provide temporal separation between trains and light rail cars.
> > >> You confused? Why shouldn't you be?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> FYI, the official definitions for all modes of public transport, at
> > least
> > >>> in North America, are those definitions set forth by the American
> > Public
> > >>> Transportation Association (APTA) through the APTA Standards
> > Development
> > >>> Program.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:42, Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> One of the guys who got this wanted to engage me in a contest over the
> > >>>> definition of light rail. I refused because it is always in the mind
> > >> of
> > >>>> the beholder and in this case, the politician.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Whatever you call it, I'm simply amazed at the passenger counts. My
> > >> God,
> > >>>> Derrick, 215,000 a day in one corner of the city.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:18 PM, Derrick Brashear wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>> LONDON'S DOCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL, NOT A PART OF THE UNDERGROUND, WAS
> > >>>> CREATED TO PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION TO THE EAST INDIA DOCKS IN AN
> > ATTEMPT
> > >> TO
> > >>>> HELP REVITALIZE THE AREA AFTER CONTAINERIZATION SPELLED THE END OF
> > THEIR
> > >>>> ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE DOCKS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE THAMES RIVER.
> > >> The
> > >>>> first two lines from Bank Street and Tower Bridge to Isle of Dogs and
> > >> from
> > >>>> Stratford in East London southward to Isle of Dogs opened in 1987
> > using
> > >>>> totally automated trains. An extension eastward to Canningtown
> > opened
> > >> in
> > >>>> 1994, one under the Thames to Greenwich and Lewisham saw service in
> > >> 1996,
> > >>>> three more extensions have opened by 2009 and another will open next
> > >> year.
> > >>>> Docklands is now transporting over 69 million riders a year which they
> > >>>> modestly say exceeds 100,000 a day ... weekdays probably exceed
> > 215,000.
> > >>>> You will notice that those short two-section articulated trains of
> > 1987
> > >> are
> > >>>> past tense! If you go to visit the Tower of London or Tower Bridge
> > >> ...
> > >>>> sneak away and look at this!
> > >>>> .!
> > >>>>> !
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Not only are they past tense, the equipment was sold when the tunnel
> > >>>>> to Bank was built, apparently.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I rode it just over a week ago, from Bank to Lewisham. Seems more
> > akin
> > >>>>> to the airport people movers than to most light rail.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Derrick
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Herb Brannon
> > >>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Herb Brannon
> > > In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Herb Brannon
> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> 
> 
>