[PRCo] Re: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
Dwight Long
dwightlong at verizon.net
Thu Mar 10 16:55:14 EST 2011
Bill
So did the previous owner of most of its latter-day pax equipment. Actually this was quite common amongst interurban lines.
CRANDIC DID have a car with couplers--IRR 65, CRANDIC 120. However, they removed them. Also, did not the preceding heavyweight cars have couplers?
s/
The Chief Nitpicker
----- Original Message -----
From: bvolkmer
To: Peter Folger ; David Neubauer ; Fred Schneider ; Skip Gatermann ; Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org ; Alan Schneider ; Dwight Long ; Jack May ; Jeff
Cc: Holtz ; Michael Greene ; Matt Nawn ; Conrad Misek ; Frank Pfuhler ; E Casey ; Vic Gordon ; David Dillard ; John Sikorskie ; Jim Greller ; Randy Gluckman ; Bob Vogel ; Bradley Clark ; Mary O'Brien ; Jimmy Boylan XX ; Bill Armstrong ; Richard Panse ; Alex Vaughn ; Brad Noyes ; Bill Mangahas ; JJ Earl ; Jack Rush XX ; Mark Goldfeder ; Andrew Chalfen ; Michael Rambo Jr ; Ted Eickmann ; Muench ; Bruce Bente ; Raleigh Dadamo ; David Horwitz ; David Pirmann ; Neil Carlson ; Chris Gatermann ; Robert Arce ; KELVIN WILKE ; Raymond Crapo Jr ; Carlos Mercado ; Merill Resnick ; Lewis Hitch ; Michael Richmond ; Thurston Clark ; Edward Havens ; Harry Pinsker ; Joseph Eid ; Scott Becker ; Trolley One ; C. K. Leverett ; Charles Greene ; Ronald Kupin ; Nate Gerstein ; Melvin Bernero ; Favorite Daugher ; Trolley Two ; Rich Parente ; Evan Jennings ; Harold Golk ; Matthew Mummert ; John Hayward ; Andrew Sisk ; Charlie Dennis ; Herald Wind ; Edward Davis ; #1 Son ; Russ Jackson ; Bill Myers ; wally young ; Joe Bux ; Dennis Zimmer ; Edson Tennyson ; Tom Hickey ; Jim Graebner
Sent: Thursday, 10 March, 2011 16:29
Subject: RE: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
No Cedar Rapids and Iowa City cars had couplers yet each time one ran, the railroad referred to it as a "train." :
--- On Thu, 3/10/11, Jeff <jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Jeff <jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
To: "Peter Folger" <transitman at maine.rr.com>, bvolkmer at bellsouth.net, "David Neubauer" <it1569djn at earthlink.net>, "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>, "Skip Gatermann" <biker4 at sbcglobal.net>, Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org, "Alan Schneider" <alschneider2 at juno.com>, "Dwight Long" <dwightlong at verizon.net>, "Jack May" <jack.may at americomm.net>
Cc: "Holtz" <atholtz at optonline.net>, "Michael Greene" <michael_t_greene at yahoo.com>, "Matt Nawn" <mwntrolley at aol.com>, "Conrad Misek" <crmisek at aol.com>, "Frank Pfuhler" <PFUHLER at MSN.COM>, "E Casey" <ecasey9631 at aol.com>, "Vic Gordon" <lipizzansvt2 at aol.com>, "David Dillard" <jwne at temple.edu>, "John Sikorskie" <sparkyberadi at aol.com>, "Jim Greller" <jcgreller at hcia.org>, "Randy Gluckman" <randygluck1 at aol.com>, "Bob Vogel" <chuchubob at yahoo.com>, "Bradley Clark" <bhc1 at aol.com>, "Mary O'Brien" <maryobrien at charter.net>, "Jimmy Boylan XX" <jamesboylan at compuserve.com>, "Bill Armstrong" <wja1933 at juno.com>, "Richard Panse" <brtpcc at mac.com>, "Alex Vaughn" <alexlvaughn at yahoo.com>, "Brad Noyes" <nozze4 at att.net>, "Bill Mangahas" <newkirk at optonline.net>, "JJ Earl" <dukeoq at aol.com>, "Jack Rush XX" <rush123 at cox.net>, "Mark Goldfeder" <frgs4evr at aol.com>, "Andrew Chalfen" <chalfen at pobox.upenn.edu>, "Michael Rambo Jr" <mrambojr at yahoo.com>, "Ted Eickmann" <twe2431 at sbcglobal.net>, "Muench" <cemuench2 at comcast.net>, "Bruce Bente" <bbente at bellsouth.net>, "Raleigh Dadamo" <dadamor at aol.com>, "David Horwitz" <air2619 at aol.com>, "David Pirmann" <pirmann at quuxuum.org>, "Neil Carlson" <ndc10169 at webtv.net>, "Chris Gatermann" <cgatermann at yahoo.com>, "Robert Arce" <r516169 at yahoo.com>, "KELVIN WILKE" <kwilke4 at sbcglobal.net>, "Raymond Crapo Jr" <raycrapo at prodigy.net>, "Carlos Mercado" <cmercado at rochester.rr.com>, "Merill Resnick" <mhr62 at aol.com>, "Lewis Hitch" <lewis.hitch at verizon.net>, "Michael Richmond" <neosho_wildcat_graduate_2007 at yahoo.com>, "Thurston Clark" <trolleydude1 at yahoo.com>, "Edward Havens" <edhavens at cox.net>, "Harry Pinsker" <hp1944 at aol.com>, "Joseph Eid" <jeidj at comcast.net>, "Scott Becker" <sbecker at pa-trolley.org>, "Trolley One" <isartorny at verizon.net>, "C. K. Leverett" <cleverett at comcast.net>, "Charles Greene" <charles.greene99 at gmail.com>, "Ronald Kupin" <ronkup at hotmail.com>, "Nate Gerstein" <atsnate at comcast.net>, "Melvin Bernero" <mbernero at prodigy.net>, "Favorite Daugher" <cue37 at charter.net>, "Trolley Two" <waltk6 at optonline.net>, "Rich Parente" <urr316 at optonline.net>, "Evan Jennings" <evan at tmny.org>, "Harold Golk" <haroldgolk at comcast.net>, "Matthew Mummert" <mlmummert at comcast.net>, "John Hayward" <johnkhayward at talktalk.net>, "Andrew Sisk" <asisk at sbcglobal.net>, "Charlie Dennis" <cdennis220 at aol.com>, "Herald Wind" <hlwind384 at comcast.net>, "Edward Davis" <biged_IRT5543 at bresnan.net>, "#1 Son" <tgatermann at gmail.com>, "Russ Jackson" <russjackson at clear.net>, "Bill Myers" <TrolleyBill99 at cs.com>, "wally young" <wallyy at shaw.ca>, "Joe Bux" <buxjoe at aol.com>, "Dennis Zimmer" <dzimmer7 at gmail.com>, "Edson Tennyson" <etennyson at cox.net>, "Tom Hickey" <trhickey at alum.villanova.edu>, "Jim Graebner" <carbarn at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 4:19 PM
Jack,
I cringe when I hear PATCO referred to as light rail. Yes, PATCO, no less !!
I also cringe when I hear people refer to light rail "cars" as trains !! And
worst of all, I cringe when I hear MUNI operators and the public in San Francisco
refer to the ex-Philly and ex-Newark PCC cars as "trains" !! I asked
one MUNI operator when this car became a train? I told him that
for decades when I rode it in Philly, it was a trolley car.
Jeff Marinoff
n Thu, 3/10/11, Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net> wrote:
From: Jack May <jack.may at americomm.net>
Subject: RE: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
To:
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 3:37 PM
I think you have a good insight into this. Light rail is the successor to the streetcar and interurban (with few exceptions like SEPTA Route 100). As for subways, YES to trolley subways, but NO to New York-type subways.
And don’t forget that there is a new term, “Light Metro.†That’s a system (like Monterrey, Mexico or Izmir, Turkey) that uses LRVs on a metro-type infrastructure over its whole length.
But the bottom line is that “it is what it is.†In other words I cringe whenever I hear a politician or the media refer to a people mover or Skytrain as light rail.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Folger [mailto:transitman at maine.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 2:07 PM
To: Jack May; bvolkmer at bellsouth.net; David Neubauer; Fred Schneider; Skip Gatermann; Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org; Alan Schneider; Dwight Long; Jeff
Cc:
Subject: Re: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
Dear Folks:
This whole thread has pointed to a great degree of the differences, (understandings & misunderstandings), in all of our general understanding of current terminology. Rather than hash it back and forth, ad nausea, it might well be the time to truly define what is what.
When I was a kid in the late 40's and early 50's there were streetcars, Interurbans, rapid transit and steam trains. In my understanding of things, when light rail came in to the picture it could possibly handle the first three of the last sentence in one way or the other; or potentially all of those three functions.
Maybe the best result of this whole situation would be to set up definitions that all could agree with.
With all due respect,
Peter Folger
P.O.Box 1741
Biddeford, ME 04005-17Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
Regarding “light rail†in the North American context, it came as alternative nomenclature for the Limited Tramline, as proposed by the father of Light Rail, Henry Dean Quinby in 1962. I was editor of Headlights at that time and we followed the story carefully, as it was the only good news that we streetcar enthusiasts had at that time since the opening of the Riverside line in 1959. See http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=694585.
I tend to agree with Bill Volkmer about the 1970s, but am not sure about more details. But I also believe that Quinby laid the seeds for what we call light rail, and its name was changed with the planning for the first new systems.
I also strongly believe the “light†refers to cost, in that it means construction without the need for grade separation and other costly features that are common to heavy rail lines, be they commuter or Metro. In other words, run in the street if you have to.
How’s this for use in a dictionary?
Transit Expert: someone who shares the same views about transit as I do
Transit “Expertâ€: someone whose views about transit I disagree with and are definitely wrong.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: bvolkmer [mailto:bvolkmer at bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:51 PM
To: David Neubauer; Fred Schneider; Skip Gatermann; Pittsburgh-Railways at Dementia.Org; peter folger; Alan Schneider; Dwight Long; Jeff
Cc:
Subject: The origin of the term Light Rail in the US
Jeff:
I don't think the term "light rail" as it was used in the 1970s by UMTA was strictly to announce that the term "trolley car" was old fashioned. The type of car they were promoting was far from the trolley car of old (even the PCC was 30 years out of date in the early 1970s).
They were not trying to differentiate between PCCs and LRV 1970s state of the art so much as they were trying to differentiate surface rail transportation from sub surface or aerial elevated modes. The chief difference was COST. In the 1970s, the big five or six cities with existing subway systems were sucking up 95% of all the available government grant money just to keep their existing systems afloat and the new cities coming on line such as San Francisco, Atlanta etc were bound to completely drain the coffers and they needed a way to "spread the wealth around" to the smaller cities that wanted rapid transit. Buffalo is an excellent example. Buffalo wanted a subway, pure and simple and UMTA had to get Buffalo to settle for "light rail," but Buffalo stayed firm and got a subway with light rail cars in it.
You have to remember that there was an entire generation of politicians and movers and shapers running around in the early 1970s who had never seen a trolley car or ridden one or knew anything about them. Unless they had traveled to Europe they wouldn't have seen any and even if they had, they were tasked with educating the masses here in the US as to what surface rail transit was all about. That is why they had to come up with a term that described the vehicles we have come to know as Light Rail Vehicles.
Even the term "vehicle" as applied to rail cars came from the aero space crowd which is where most of the people with jobs worked.
You might conclude that the term Light Rail was concocted by aerospace weinies entering the railroad field by default. There were a lot of people who were in that category in the early 1970s after man landed on the moon in 1969. They sure didn't know anything about PCC cars.
WDV
--- On Thu, 3/10/11, Jeff <jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Jeff <jeffmarinoff at yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 12:25 PM
Dwight,
I didn't say that today's use of the term "light rail" was one that I approve of, only that it is what it is. Were you around in the 1970's when the term "light rail", with its present meaning, became fashionable? People were horrified to use the term "street car" or "trolley car", so they (re) invented the term light rail. Heaven forbid that we call a rose a rose !! Somehow the transit "experts" and consultants felt that the public wouldn't swallow the term street car, but light rail was something new and modern. These are the same people that shoved pantographs and ugly compound catenary down the throats of transit systems when trolley wires and trolley poles worked perfectly well {and less expensively} for decades, including at high speeds.
Some notable trolley pole operations were the Indiana Railroad, North Shore, Pacific Electric, Philadelphia Suburban, Dayton & Xenia, Dayton & Troy, Lake Shore Electric, Lehigh Valley Transit, Cincinnati & Lake Erie and many other high speed interurban lines. But modern day transit "experts" forgot about those systems or never knew about them in the first place.
Jeff Marinoff
--- On Thu, 3/10/11, Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net> wrote:
From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: The Rest of the World -Electric Rails - Britain
To:
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 1:06 AM
Jeff
There are two problems with your thesis.
1) Some lines that are called "light rail transit" by Newspeak terminology actually transport many more pax than some of those classified as "heavy rail." As my ole granpappy said, "Son, that dog won't hunt."
2) It is inconsistent with the "official" definitions presented very recently by Herb Brannon on this list.
The Newspeak definition of "light rail" takes a perfectly good, serviceable definition that has been in place for many, many years and twists it into something quite unintended by the original definition. A "Light Railway" or "Light Rail" meant, and still does mean (at least to the faithful), exactly what Dave stated. It is unfortunate that the term has been hijacked and made to mean something else from that which it originally meant--and still does to some folks who have memories--or who read history.
Another tragic hijacking of a perfectly good word in a much broader, non-rail context is "organic," which means "containing carbon." Today to many unknowing folks, "organic" means "food grown without pesticides." Some folks will not eat food that (to their misperceived definition) is not organic. It's really rather comic. Just try to find food--other than table salt--that does not contain carbon!
Just because a word or term is trendy does not mean it is correct or that those who wish to be correct should use it. This sort of conundrum is produced by sloppy thinking, research, lexicography, or worse, by propagandists. It's unfortunate--but those of us who appreciate correct and traditional use of words are, sad to say, fighting an uphill and lonely battle.
Dwight
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