[PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
Herb Brannon
hrbran at cavtel.net
Thu Mar 17 16:53:04 EDT 2011
Just for the fun of it all, I have included the GMC specs for both the 45xx
series and the 53xx series buses. The List Server may destroy the table
aspect of the information. Only one way to find out...........that's to send
it.
FYI, here is information on the 45xx series GMC buses from the manufacture:
4516 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/4516.html>
GMC 35-foot "New-Look"
Specifications
- Length: 35 feet
- Width: 96, 102
- Height: 121 inches
- Wheelbase: 235 inches
- Turn radius: 37 feet
- Typical engine: DDA 6V-71
- Seating: 41-45
- Luggage: None
- Aisle Width: 20, 26 inches
- Front door width: 30 inches
Production history Year Model
Qty
1959-1962 TDH-4516, -4517;
TDM-4517
1,954
1963-1967 TDH-4518, -4519;
TDM-4519
2,091
1968-1971 T6H-4521, -4521A
1,197
1972-1977 T6H-4523N, -4523A
2,562
Total
7,804
Notes:
1. Wide units, TDH-4616 and 4518,totaled 273
2. Mechanical, 4-speed transmissions,
TDM-4517 and -4519, totaled 14
The new-looks, first delivered in September 1959, were also known as
"fishbowls" because of their much larger windows, especially the six-piece
windshield, compared with predecessor buses. The fishbowl effect was quite
startling to some people accustomed to seeing only small-windowed buses. In
Dayton, Ohio, the first order was specially modified to use opaque
fiberglass in the lower sections of the windshield to restore proper modesty
to the Midwestern city.
Detail differences in the new-look appearance occurred in late 1962
when the art deco, square marker lights were changed to bullet-shaped lights
anf other appearance details were changed along with several engineering
improvements.
Another variation in the model number scheme occurred in 1960 when the
new suburban configurations created the SDH and SDM types. When
eight-cylinder engines became an option, the D in the model number was
replaced by either a 6 or an 8, depending on the number of cylinders. The
letters A or N at the end of a model number indicated either Air
conditioning or No air conditioning.
Model designations were by nominal capacity (45) with the even-numbered
models (4516, 4518) indicating the 102-inch width. Starting in 1968, model
numbers of air conditioned buses ended in "A."
Information from the Bus World Encyclopedia of Buses - 1988
Here is the information for the 53xx series GMC buses, again, from the
manufacturer:
5301 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5301.html>
GMC 40-foot "New-Look"
Also See GMC Suburban
"New-Look"<http://www.coachinfo.com/AllAboutBuses/GMC_Info.html#anchor>
Specifications
- Length: 40 feet
- Width: 96, 102
- Height: 121 inches
- Wheelbase: 285 inches
- Turn radius: 42 feet
- Typical engine: DDA 6V-71, DDA 8V-71
- Seating: 49-53
- Luggage: None
- Aisle Width: 20, 26 inches
- Front door width: 30 inches
Production history Year Model
Qty
1959-1963 TDH-5301 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5301.html>,
-5302 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5302T.html>;
TDM-5301 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5301.html>,
-5302<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5302T.html>
4,618
1963-1967 TDH-5303 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5303T.html>,
-5304 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5304T.html>;
TDM-5303 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5303T.html>,
-5304<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5304T.html>
8,389
1968-1971 T6H-5305 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5305.html>,
-5305A <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5305.html>;
T6H-5306 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5306.html>,
-5306A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5306.html>
T6M-5305A <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5305.html>,
-5306<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5306.html>,
5306A <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5306.html>
T8H-5305 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5305.html>,
-5305A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5305.html>
;
T8H-5306 <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5306.html>,
-5306A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5306.html>
3,350
1972-1977 T6H-5307N <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5307.html>,
-5307A <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5307.html>;
T6H-5308N <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5308.html>,
5308A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5308.html>
T8H-5307N <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5307.html>,
-5307A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5307.html>
;
T8H-5308N <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5308.html>,
-5308A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5308.html>
T6H-5309A <http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5309.html>,
-5310A<http://www.coachinfo.com/Manuals/Coach/GMC/5310.html>
5,677
Total
22,034
Notes:
1. Narrow units, TDH/M-5302, TDH/M-5304, T6H/T8H-5306, -5306A, T6H/T8H-5308,
-5308A, totaled 5,437
2. Mechanical transmissions, TDM-5301, -5302, -5303,
-5304; T6M-5305A, -5306, -5306A, T8H-5307A, -5308A, totaled 324.
(These T8H series buses had mechanical transmissions in spite of the "H"
designation.)
Model designations indicated nominal capacity (53) with the
even-numbered models
(-5302, etc.) being 96-inches wide. Most notes in the section on 35-foot
new-looks <http://www.coachinfo.com/AllAboutBuses/GMC_Info.html#anchor>apply
to the 40-foot new-looks.
Starting in 1968, the Detroit Diesel 8V-71 engine, relected by "8" in
the model number, and VS transmission with overdrive were offered as options
for high-speed expressway operation.
Although production of the new-look in the U.S. was discontinued in
1977, GM of Canada continued to produce them at their Ontario plant,
changing the letters in the trapezoidal nameplate under the windshield from
"GMC" to "GM."
Information from the Bus World Encyclopedia of Buses - 1988
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 16:26, John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> the first group were 50 TDH4518A and 100 TDH 53?? in the 1000-1049 and
> 2000-2099 series. Both were the 102 in wide models.
> And then everything sort of merges together after that point.
> I am clueless as to PAT's current fleet. Gathering that sort of
> information is no longer considered important at work.
>
> As for 30 foot buses, one of the early purchases included around 45 TDH
> 3501s. They didn't last all that long at PAT, with some ending up in
> Johnstown in the 1970s. Harold Jenkins said that they were a good little
> bus, but you had to keep after them.
>
> Speaking of one persons trash being anothers treasure - CAT in Harrisburg
> recently put into service 4 ex. SEPTA Gillig buses. Altoona and State
> College also seem to squeeze a lot of years out of their bus fleets. A
> recent Altoona picture attached. Also a recent pix from Johnstown
>
> Cheers
> John
>
>
> > From: dwightlong at verizon.net
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:50:14 -0400
> >
> > John
> >
> > That sounds right, although I would not want to trust my memory of those
> times too far and I don't have any data on the financing of the acquisition
> process readily at hand.
> >
> > I do know that PAAC was one of the earliest recipients of Federal money,
> but that was not until 1965, a good year after the PRC takeover. The first
> tranche of Fed bucks was $5.5MM for an additional 180 new buses (some to
> replace North Side trams) and new bus garages.
> >
> > So your "suspect recollection" is spot on!
> >
> > Dwight
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Swindler
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Sent: Thursday, 17 March, 2011 14:27
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Dwight
> >
> > And wasn't it a PAT bond issue that provided the money for the
> acquisitions plus first 150 GM buses, plus cash flow?? I don't know if the
> county guaranteed the bonds.
> >
> > There was no federal money used at that time, so state taxpayers were on
> the hook for paying for PAT start-up - possibly into the 1990s.
> >
> > The follow-on bus purchases may have involved federal grants, but this is
> a very suspect recollection.
> >
> > Cheers
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: dwightlong at verizon.net
> > > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > > Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> > > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:28:01 -0400
> > >
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > No, I don't think so.
> > >
> > > What the court lowered was PRC's original asking price. They raised the
> PAAC's original offering price.
> > >
> > > The final amount included over $2MM in interest which had accrued since
> the 1 March 1964 takeover date.
> > >
> > > Dwight
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Fred Schneider
> > > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, 17 March, 2011 11:18
> > > Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> > >
> > >
> > > Then if the court ordered $19,137,589, the original offer wasn't $5
> million as suggested further down in this string but perhaps $20 million or
> more because the court lowered the original offer.
> > >
> > > On Mar 17, 2011, at 10:42 AM, Dwight Long wrote:
> > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > And settled (court-dictated) for $19,137,589 in 1967!
> > > >
> > > > The individual MCA articles were in the late 70s and are out of print
> and unavailable unless one comes up on ebay or similar sales sites. The
> later articles on PAAC were in the April 1997 and 1998 issues--they were by
> VAN Wilkins, not John Wilkins as I earlier opined--and were the source of
> most of my info, which I have passed on to Bob Rathke (and will to you or
> anyone else interested in such arcania--just drop me a line via email
> directly.
> > > >
> > > > Dwight
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: John Swindler
> > > > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 17 March, 2011 08:11
> > > > Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There's a good chance that some PUC reports on the independents is
> sitting in the PTM archives. Some three plus decades ago I copied both route
> certificate information and annual reports from the PUC archives on the
> Pittsburgh independents for a series Ollie Miller was putting together for
> Motor Coach Age. The series appeared in Motor Coach Age over several years
> around 1980.
> > > >
> > > > There is also a more complete list of the acquisition cost of the
> independents - Grant McCoy's father and uncle sold McCoy Bros. and William
> Penn to Port Authority for just over $1 million. Of course supporting the
> Democratic Party in Allegheny Co. had no connection with that sale price.
> > > > By comparison, PRC was offered $5 million.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> From: dwightlong at verizon.net
> > > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> > > >> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:17:28 -0400
> > > >>
> > > >> Bob
> > > >> PAAC acquired in 1964, besides Pittsburgh Railways, 29 independent
> bus lines. Of these, eleven were deficit operations or close to it. It is
> said that only four companies, Penn Transit, Shafer Coach Lines, Ohio River
> Motor Coach, and Community Transit Service, provided about half the net
> income of all 29 carriers. However, without further research, I don't have
> income figures for the various companies. Here are the 1964 acquisitions:
> PRC, Community Transit, Penn Transit, Shafer Coach, Rogers Transit,
> Brentwood Motor Coach, DeBolt Bus Lines, Poskin Bus Line, Ridge Lines, Bigi
> Bus Lines, Oriole Motor Coach, Trafford Coach Lines, Bacco Coach Lines,
> Burrelli Transit Service, McKeesport Transit Co, Wall Bus Line, Horrell
> Transportation Co., Ohio River Motor Coach, Austin Motor Coach, McCoy Bros
> Coach, Wm. Penn Motor Coach, Culmersville, Russleton & Cheswick Transit Co.,
> J.M. Ferguson Bus, Duquesne Motor Coach Lines, Dawson Motor Coach, Deere
> Bros. Bus Line, Noble J. Dick L!
> > in!
> > > >> es, Mon Valley Bus Co., Bamford Motor Coach Lines, and Carnegie
> Coach Lines.
> > > >>
> > > >> In an earlier post I recalled the Brentwood Motor Coach Co.,
> sometimes known as Brentwood Murder Lurch Co. I mentioned their Fitz john
> buses. They also had a motley collection of used GM buses--all TDH models of
> different capacity and age.
> > > >>
> > > >> PAAC acquired 857 buses in 1964 from the acquired companies. The
> makers included GM, White, Mack, Beaver, Fitz john, ACF Brill and--school
> buses--38 of them. I have a complete roster but I don't have the time to
> re-type it and this site will not let me reproduce it as part of this email.
> If you--or anyone else on the list--is interested in it, send me a direct
> email and I'll copy it and forward to you.
> > > >>
> > > >> Dwight
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: Bob Rathke
> > > >> To: Pittsburgh Trolley List
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 16 March, 2011 18:57
> > > >> Subject: [PRCo] PAT's 1964 bus company acquisitions
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> In the Fall of 1964 I started to compile a summary of PAT bus
> company (and PRC) acquisitions that year - company name, location, date
> acquired and purchase price. My sources were articles in the Pittsburgh
> Press and input from some trolley fans who lived in towns along the acquired
> routes.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm looking for?the final summary.?In the meantime, attached are my
> incomplete working notes. Apologies for the messy presentation, but it's
> allI can find right now.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Bob
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
> > > >> -- Type: image/jpeg
> > > >> -- Size: 171k (175379 bytes)
> > > >> -- URL :
> http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/PATbusAcquisitionReport1964.JPG
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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>
>
>
--
Herb Brannon
In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
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