[PRCo] Re: Troop trains

[Fred Schneider]

You must understand, Dwight, that the secret to going to New Orleans or El Paso over a two-day weekend to photograph trolleys, or St. Louis on a three day pass, was getting a ride that was going a considerable distance and then sleeping in that car.  The best deal I ever got was one ride all the way from Van Horn to Fort Worth, Texas over night .... that's about 545 miles.  That's a good night's sleep.   In that instance I was in Fort Worth coming back from El Paso at 7 a.m. Sunday and wondering, now what do I do to kill time.  I'm not going back to the base this early.   

I have a fantastic memory for useless details.   Don't ask me the color of my wife's eyes.   But I can remember the phone number in Pittsburgh in 1949 was SYcamore 1416-J.   

Down that same line, the mileage up to St. Louis was 809 miles via Dallas.  I came back through Fort Worth and that was 836 miles.  I left right after work on Thursday, was out on the highway by 6 PM with my thumb in the breeze.   By 9 PM (plus or minus five minutes I was in downtown Dallas.   I remember talking to an old New York railfan who worked for SLPS on Friday.  I photographed the company all day Friday ... a lot of it on Kodacolor.   Saturday I took a chartered bus out to Museum of Transport.   Saturday evening I started hitching my way back.   

The ride I remember that was the most depressing was one man who picked me up near the Missouri/Oklahoma/Kansas border west of Joplin after I had stood there in the middle of the night for hours.   He hauled me all the way to Fort Worth.  Really nice guy.   Well off too.   He made over $20,000 a year in 1959 ferrying automobiles from the factory in Detroit to a dealer in Fort Worth.   (To put that into perspective, a starting college graduate working for the state of Pennsylvania in 1960 would have earned about $4,500 a year.)   He would tie two of them together, disconnect the speedometers so the customers thought they had brand new cars, put on his own speedometer on the lead car and drive them 1500 miles or so from Detroit to Texas.   The man had a lot of money.   But he couldn't enjoy it.  

You see, he was black and he lived in a Jim Crow state.    

If he had lived up north, say Allegheny County, in 1959 with that kind of money, he would have been one of the blacks climbing up Penn Avenue or Frankstown Road toward Penn Hills.  

I remember stopping for lunch in Oklahoma.   I simply followed him to restaurant.   He looked at me and said, "No.   No.   I have to go to the kitchen door to get my lunch.   You must go to the front door."  

Well, I had spent a lot of vacations in between 1954 and 1958 in the south and I understood.   I just didn't equate Oklahoma as a southern state.   And I truly felt saddened for this man.   

Well, by late afternoon Sunday, I was back on the base.   

There was something about a Texan in those days.   Even though they didn't have Interstate highways, I always felt the typical Texan was insulted if he got a traffic ticket and he wasn't doing at least 30 miles over the limit.   It was a matter of pride.  And they were expensive tickets.   In those days they hit you with the basic fine plus $1 per mile per hour over the limit.   I met one guy going to El Paso night that got pulled over near San Angelo for doing something like 75 (the limit was 50 after dark).   When he got back into the car, he moaned, "That's the third speeding ticket I got tonight" as pushed the car back up to 75 or 80.  

The fastest ride?   I had gone into the pine country to see the Moscow, Camden and San Augustine steam engines.   Then I hitched a ride south toward Houston.   The guy's girl friend was right behind the steering wheel with him.   I figured she felt the steering wheel impaling her was better than flying through the windshield if he hit something.   He had that 56 Ford's speedometer pegged on 130 for mile after mile after mile.  I didn't know they'd go that fast.   I never saw telephone poles go by like fence posts until that afternoon.   DamfIkno what he had under that hood.  

But Dwight, in those days the night limit was 50, the day limit was 60 and I think most Texans ran about 20 over the limit.  I remember three Friday nights in a row I arrived in Dallas at 9:05, 8:55 and 9:00 by the clock at Elm and Peak Streets.   That was 160 miles from the base.   I got off work at 5 p.m., fed and watered the bear, grabbed my clothes and the camera and headed for the highway.   So it was probably about three hours each time to go 160 miles, or an average of 53 miles an hour hitching rides.    That includes waiting time with the thumb up, congestion in Killeen, Temple, Waco and city streets for several miles on the south side of Dallas.   You tell me how fast the average guy was going?  All I know by comparison is my dad always felt he could average 30 miles an our on a trip before Interstates.   

It is a lot slower in east Texas today.   The population has grown from 9.5 million to 25 million since 1960 and most of those people are in East Texas.   Even the Interstate highways today are slower than the two lane U. S. highways were 50 years ago.    I remember it was 36 miles from Dallas to Fort Worth and in 1959 about 30 of those miles were range country.   About ten years ago Roy King, Jr. described coming home in rush hour from Fort Worth and having it take nearly two hours.   He lived in a northern suburb of Dallas.  Roy remember when he and his wife moved there in the 1960s, they would crunch armadillos driving down their subdivision streets after dark.   The light rail to Plano now goes something like 10 miles farther north and that isn't anywhere near the end of the congestion today.   I think it ends somewhere north of the Oklahoma border!  
If you don't believe me, go to Bing Maps, get into your Bing Helicopter and fly around that area ... it is absolutely nothing but congestion today.    


On May 11, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Dwight Long wrote:

>   Fred   How the hell did you make St Louis from Ft. Hood and back on a
> three d= ay pass hitchhiking?   Methinks the only way one could do this is
> ifone flew.  That's a= bout an 800 mile trip, one way.   Dwight
> 
> May 11, 2011 01:52:36 AM, pittsburgh-railways at dement= ia.org wrote:
> Oh yes. Rolla= . Last traffic light on US 66 for a hundred miles or more
> going west from S= t. Louis! 
> 
> How I know. Well, in May 1959 I had a three day pass and = hitched from Fort
> Hood up to St. Louis to ride the trolleys. On the way bac= k on Saturday
> night, I went out to somewhere near Kirkwood or Manchester an= d raised the
> old thumb. A car stopped with three young ladies. They took me= to Rolla
> telling me it was the last traffic light. 
> 
> Damn that one i= n the back seat next to me was hot. 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 10, 2011, at 8:4= 3 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
> 
>> Bob On my trip to Rolla I had spent th= e day riding the IT suburban
>> service=3D and fotting SLPS before hea= ding west to Rolla. The Dog on
> whichI
>> ro=3D de had no restroom--it= was an early version of the Highway Traveler
>> series--and I well re= member the rest stop on my trip. It was at a p=3D
> lace
>> called "The = Diamond," or something close to that and I think it =3D was
> on
>> theo= ld Rt.66. I was in desperate need of it, at any rate, hav=3D ing been
> &g= t; lulled into a belief that the bus would have a restroom by virtue =3D
> of= the
>> fact that the one I rode into STL DID have such a facility! An= d yes, that
>> is the preferred pronunciation of Rolla! Dwight
>> = 
>> May 10, 2011 04:20:13 AM, pittsburgh-railways at dement=3D ia.org wr= ote:
>> 
>> I remembe=3D r stopping at the Post House in Rolla (R= AWL-Luh) on a
>> cross-country=3DC3=3D82&n=3D bsp;Greyhound trip i= n 1962. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob 
>> 
>> 
>> = 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Her= b Brannon" To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org 
>> Sent: Monday, May = 9, 2011 9:46:=3D 25 PM 
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Troop trains 
>>> I haven't heard that tow=3D ns name mentioned in quite a few years.= 1957
> was 
>> almost a decade before=3D my time there but I doubt if i= t changed very
> much. 
>> On Mon, May 9, 2011=3D at 21:02, Dwight Long = wrote: 
>> 
>>> =3DC3=3D82&n=3D bsp; =3DC3=3D82 =3DC3=3D82= Herb =3DC3=3D82 Back in 1957 I
> was returni=3D ng
>> east from Rolla, = Mo., on the 
>>> Frisco's loc=3D3D al passenger train=3D , and we w= ent into the hole at
> least
>> once, 
>>> and I think tw=3D3D i= ce, =3D for a very long troop train. =3DC3=3D82 I
> learned
>> laterthat= it 
>>> w=3D as headed =3D3D to Ft. Leonard Wood. =3DC3=3D82 Dwigh= t 
>>> 
>>> Ma=3D y 9, 2011 05:29:17 PM, pittsburgh-railway= s at dementi=3D3D a.org
> wrote: 
>>> =3D In the Summer=3D3D of 1964 I h= ad a "seasonal" job with the City of
> Akron,
>>> Street 
>>> = &Hig=3D3D hway Dept, as a laborer on a McAdam pavi=3D ng crew. We had =
> athree
>> day 
>>> job,=3D3D in mid-August, on a city stree= =3D t which ran along side the
> main 
>>> east-westrailroad tracks. = These tr=3D acks served the Eire-Lackawanna, 
>>> Baltimore 
> &gt= ;> &=3D3D Ohio =3D 
>>> and the Pennsylvania railroads. Ever= y day we worked on that street=3D
> =3D3D we
>> saw 
>>> troop t= rain after troop train headed westbound. All th=3D e trains
> us=3D3D ed
> &= gt; the 
>>> 1930s Pullman cars you speak about. Just a f=3D ew mon= ths later in
> Ap=3D3D ril,
>> 
>>> 1965 
>>> I 
>> = >departed, l=3D ike your brother, on a TWA flight headed for BCT =3D3D =
> and AIT,
>> as a 
>>> =3D Combat Engineer, at Ft Leonard Wood,= MO. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> &g=3D t; On=3D3D S= un, May 8, 2011 at 22:52, Bob Rathke wrote: 
>>>> 
>>> = =3D ; >A couple of follow-ups, Fred: 
>>>> 
>>>>>> &g=3D t; 
>>>> =3D3D - In March, 1963 I took my = brother to Greater Pittsburg=3D h
> Airport
>> where 
>>> he>= boarded a TWA Constellation for his inductio=3D n in the Army at Ft.
> Kn=3D3= D
>> ox. 
>>>> Attached is a photo of my broth=3D er about = to enter the door,
> look=3D3Ding
>> back 
>>>> toward the c= amera=3D . 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> &= gt; By 1964=3D3D -67, th=3D e Defense Department was sending a greater
> numb= er of 
>>>> Pittsbu=3D =3D3D rgh inductees to basic training on = trains from the PRR
> and
>> P&LE >>=3D3D stations. I took pho= tos of the 1930's Pullman cars kept in
> th=3D
>> ose
>>> statio= ns>for use on the inductee trains. 
>>>> 
>> =3D >&gt= ;
>>>> 
>>>> - L=3D3D ast Fall, my uncle told me abou= =3D t his rail trip to basic
> training
>> in 
>>> 1942> (pre= viously, he had =3D never talked about his WWII experiences).
> His 
>> &= gt; dad=3D3D 
>>> 
>> =3D >>accompanied him to the P&amp= ;LE station that day where he boarded
> =3D =3D3D a
>> B&O
>> &g= t; train 
>>> to 
>>>> Washington, D.C., and=3D then on = to an Army base in=3D3D the South. Hhe
> said
>> his 
>>>> pa= rents=3D (my grandparents) didn't know that=3D3D he enlisted in the
> Army -> they 
>> &=3D gt; >always thought that he had been dra= =3D3D fted. 
>>>> 
>>> =3D >
>>>> 
>> = >>Last Fall he talked freely about his =3D3D e=3D xperiences in the =
> U.S.and
>> Pacific 
>>>> 1942-45, and I furiously to=3D ok= n=3D3D otes on everything he said. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> &= gt;> &g=3D t; 
>>>> Bob 
>>>> 
>>> =3D= 3D >
>>>> 
>>> =3D >
>>>> 
>>> &= gt; 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> =3D 
>>>> = 
>>>> =3D3D ; 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> &gt= ; =3D 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> &g= t;> &=3D3D g=3D t; From: "Fred Schneider" 
>>>> To: pitts= burgh=3D3D -railways at dementia=3D .org 
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 8,= 2011 10:40:38 AM 
>>>> =3D3D ; =3D Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pennsylv= ania RR Heritage Passenger
> Train
>>>> =3D 
>>> &=3D= 3D gt; Back on October 8th, 1958, I entered the army. The lo=3D cal
>> = recruiter 
>>> (yes=3D3D , 
>>>> guys, RA stood for rag= ged ass=3D ) gave me a ticket to Harrisburg on
> =3D3D the
>> 
>> &g= t; Pennsy. 
>>>> M=3D y parents were on the station platform in = Lancaster to=3D3D say
> good-bye.
>>>> And dad had one last pictur= e of the train disappeari=3D3D ng west w=3D
> ith one
>> of 
>>> = >those Pennsy business cars on the rear end of n=3D3D =3D umber 25. >>>
>>>> That was one hellish long day. Hours o=3D f = processin=3D3D g and
> finallya bus
>> to 
>>>> Philadelphia= and another=3D bus to Fort Dix. An=3D3D d then standing in
>> formati= on 
>>> for 
>>> =3D >an hour. Finally some a-hole serge= =3D3D ant comes out of a building
> and s=3D
>> ays, 
>>>> "O= h, you guys still here. Wel=3D3D l maybe we do something.=3D " And he
> sent> usto 
>>>> dinner at 11 PM for wha=3D3D t was left over= =3D in the reception
> center.Then
>> to 
>>>> bed at 1 AM. = Then =3D3D they w=3D oke us up again at 4 a.m. to tell us
> we were
>> i= n 
>>>> the army now.=3D =3D3D 
>>>> 
>>>> = Thanks Bob, for the memories. 
>>>> =3D 
>>>> 
> &g= t;>> -- A=3D3D ttached file removed by Ecartis and put =3D at URL bel=
> ow-- 
>>>> -- Type: im=3D3D age/gif 
>>>> -- Size: 1= =3D 88k (192970 bytes) 
>>>> -- URL : 
>>>> http:=3D3= D 
>>> // =3D 
>>> lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-rail= ways/TWAConstJackStairs63.=3D
>> jpg.gif=3D3D 
>>> 
>> &gt= ;> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> =3D 
>>>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Herb Brannon 
>>> In Cuyah= =3D3D o=3D ga Valley National Park 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> &g=3D t; 
>> 
>> 
>> -= - 
>> Herb Brannon 
>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park 
>> = 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>