[PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
Derrick Brashear
shadow at gmail.com
Thu Sep 1 22:17:59 EDT 2011
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net> wrote:
> Jim
>
> The old, PRC system (the one that was in use up to the time of the PAAC takeover) was two digits, arranged in more or less reverse compass order (there were exceptions) starting with the north side routes.
>
> The PAAC-dictated system was based on some arcane logic. By the time of the latter tram conversions, they had abandoned it for the converted routes and just continued to use the PRC numbers. Now there is still another system, and I have no idea on what it is based.
1-5 and 6-0 were arranged around spines. 1, 6 were regular routes. 2,7
were "limited" (why 67 and not 66? i guess because at some point they
must have used blvd of the allies for some of the route?), 3 and 8
were express, 4,9 was non-center-city through routes (54c), and 5,0
were local service (55 routes near homestead, 60 near mckeesport, 65
turtle creek, 70 wilmerding, 75 monroeville)
then the letters were branches off the spine.
> Dwight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Keener
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> Cc: Fred Schneider
> Sent: Thursday, 01 September, 2011 11:06
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
>
>
> Sorry for my ignorance.
> The old system was 3 or 4 digits denoting routes, while the newer system
> that pat is/was based on is numbered by end-point?
>
> Jim
>
> On 09/01/2011 10:59 AM, Fred Schneider wrote:
> > Again, Herb, you should have read the former message. Rebecca Street and Reedsdale Street are the same street.
> >
> >
> > On Aug 30, 2011, at 7:47 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> >
> >> Dwight,
> >> You answered my question. When I said, "what is 20-REBECCA" is I actually
> >> meant WHAT is it, a district, a street, or what. On the PTM map there is no
> >> reference to anything named Rebecca. So it was the former name of Reedsdale
> >> then. I'm with you, the "modern" route numbers make more sense inasmuch as
> >> everyone on The List does not have the old numbering system. I for one, am
> >> really not interested in the old system since I know the system from the
> >> 1950s onward. Thanks for the proper answer.
> >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 19:39, Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Fred
> >>>
> >>> I should have prefaced my remarks by saying "in modern times."
> >>>
> >>> You are one of the few who has access to, or cares about, the old PRC route
> >>> numbers as distinct from destination sign numbers. I should have thought
> >>> of
> >>> that and that you had some historic basis for assigning "Rebecca" to Rt.
> >>> 17.
> >>>
> >>> The more worrisome thing is that I am thinking of the 1914 era as "olden
> >>> times," when the abandonment of (modern) route 20 seems like a short time
> >>> ago--i.e. recent history. It was sixty freaking years ago!
> >>>
> >>> When Reedsdale St. was Rebecca St (when Allegheny was a city as well as a
> >>> county) it had a couple of (youthful) residents who later were quite
> >>> famous--Alexander and Mary Cassatt. It is said that Andy Carnegie also
> >>> lived on Rebecca for a while in his early Pittsburgh (well, Allegheny)
> >>> days.
> >>>
> >>> Dwight
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 6:47 PM
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Point of order ... you are correct for your era Dwight but it went by
> >>>> several names.
> >>>>
> >>>> Route: 112A Rebecca Street Shuttle (on the route cards)
> >>>> Destination: REBECCA STREET SHUTTLE
> >>>> Destination: 17 REEDSDALE
> >>>>
> >>>> Rebecca and Reedsdale streets are equivalent ... different years,
> >>>> different names.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Aug 30, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Fred
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 17 was NOT Rebecca. Rebecca was 20, and was not a shuttle. 17 was
> >>>>> Reedsdale and was a shuttle. Both came off in 1951. I rode both, might
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> been in the last month, but alas, took no pictures of either. Tracks
> >>> and
> >>>>> overhead for at least 20 were in for years after bustitution. Maybe PRC
> >>>>> had
> >>>>> visions of restoring to trams some day? Reason given for abandonment
> >>> was
> >>>>> construction in the lower Point area (Gateway Center) and supposed
> >>>>> removal
> >>>>> of the "temporary" wooden ramp to the Manchester Bridge. Said ramp was
> >>>>> still there many years later! 17 perished because PRC was in the
> >>>>> process
> >>>>> of getting rid of all shuttles and it was convenient to do so at the
> >>> time
> >>>>> 20
> >>>>> was bustituted, simply, I think, by routing the bus over its route.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Shadeland was gone before my time. I have no clue.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dwight
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> >>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:06 PM
> >>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> As Fonzi would have said, Correctimundo. Some shuttles such as 78
> >>>>>> Laketon Road carried the number of the longer route 78 Oakmont simply
> >>>>>> because, when it was shortened, that was practical. And the 9 Charles
> >>>>>> shuttle took the number of the shortened version of the Perrysville
> >>>>>> car ---- 9 Perrysville to Charles Street and Perrysville Avenue once
> >>>>>> double end cars were removed from Perrysville Avenue in the 1920s.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In some cases the shuttles were remnants of longer lines that once ran
> >>>>>> downtown such as 29 Thornburg.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But you are absolutely correct John. The shuttles often took the
> >>>>>> numbers
> >>>>>> of previously abandoned lines in the 'hood.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now explain to be how 16 Superior - Shadeland and 17 Rebecca Street got
> >>>>>> their numbers. There had to be exceptions to the belief that all
> >>>>>> shuttles got numbers from abandoned routes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, John Swindler wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It appears that route numbers were assigned in 1914 to routes
> >>> operating
> >>>>>>> downtown, E Liberty and Oakland - places were there were multiple
> >>>>>>> routes.
> >>>>>>> There was no need to assign a route number to the various shuttle
> >>>>>>> routes.
> >>>>>>> That came later as route numbers were "freed" thru what we would now
> >>>>>>> call
> >>>>>>> "rationalization" of the PRC system. One of my retirement hobbies
> >>> will
> >>>>>>> be to see what the Pittsburgh newspapers have to say about these early
> >>>>>>> routes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: dwightlong at verizon.net
> >>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
> >>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:25:02 -0400
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, in anything resembling our time they certainly were. 51 was the
> >>>>>>>> Bon
> >>>>>>>> Air Shuttle, 52 was the Carson Street shuttle (from the end of line
> >>>>>>>> loop
> >>>>>>>> upriver), and 53 was, of course, Carrick.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I knew Derrick could not have meant 51--at least in the parlance that
> >>>>>>>> any PRC enthusiast living today would remember!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dwight
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: John Swindler
> >>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011 08:19
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 53 used the Tenth St. bridge and Second Ave. to downtown. 50 used
> >>>>>>>> Carson
> >>>>>>>> St. and Smithfield St. bridge. Both were on Carson 10th to 18th St.
> >>>>>>>> Then
> >>>>>>>> 53 went up 18th to Brownsville Rd., while 50 continued on Carson to
> >>>>>>>> 30th
> >>>>>>>> St.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In early years there were two routes that used Tenth St. bridge and
> >>>>>>>> two
> >>>>>>>> routes on Carson that used Smithfield St. I think Tenth St. bridge
> >>> had
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> short turn at 22nd and Carson. Routes numbers 50, 51. 52 and 53 were
> >>>>>>>> originally used on these Carson St. routes. But some of the numbers
> >>>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>>> shifted around over the years.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The shuttle to 36th St. was the remnant of the line from Carson to
> >>>>>>>> Hays
> >>>>>>>> on south side of Mon River. There was a Pittsburgh & Birmingham/PRC
> >>>>>>>> carbarn at Carson and 30th St., which might have had something to do
> >>>>>>>> with 30th being terminal of route 50 Carson.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> just trying to keep current (lol)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:04:43 -0400
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Streetcars in the Strip District?
> >>>>>>>>> From: shadow at gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Dwight Long <
> >>> dwightlong at verizon.net>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Derrick
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please explain how Rt. 50 diverged from Rt 51, or even vice versa!
> >>>>>>>>> sorry, should have said 53, not 51!
> >>>>>>>>> i have bus on the brain.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Derrick
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Herb Brannon
> >> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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--
Derrick
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