[PRCo] Re: 4366 on Nevergreen

[Fred Schneider]

I think it might have been there ... I think I photographed in there in 1955.   They kept the ten best cars scattered around the system until 1956 in case of accidents.   The probably would not have put an HL control car in a K35 barn.  If they borrowed 4393 from Keating for a trip to Washington County, it was assigned there and probably would have been returned.

We would need to con Dave Hamley into checking all his barn assignment lists. 

Right, Phil.   

We could also approach the word shuttle in another way ... that is that Pittsburgh didn't use the word.  They used the word TRANSFER as in P&LE TRANSFER.   



On Feb 14, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:

> Mr.Schneider;
> 
> As I understand Mr.Long it is a mis-association of the dates.
> It is known to railfans that the 4393 served 12-Evergeeen; when
> they heard it was operating part of a charter they then
> associate the charter date with the last day of 12-line.
> Just a case of mistaken identity.
> 
> 
> Thus the answer to your question is:  "No!"  Isn't it.  It is not the
> fact that it came from East Street that makes the Feb date
> final; just a misunderstanding of what actually happened.
> 
> It is very possible that 4393 was not at Keating in Feb-1954;
> that is a tremendous distance to County home isn't it.  East
> street was a good corridor but near North Side operation then
> downtown and special switching to go south consumes real
> time.  Prc people were very sharp; they knew a high speed DE
> car is needed.  They would bring it to the closest point which
> is the South Hills Jct.  Since all DE lines are out of service it
> doesn't need to come from nor go to Keating after the charter.
> Bring it to South Hills and allow the lower paid hostlers to move
> it where needed.
> 
> 
> The other day you mentioned all TrolleyCar lines shuttle.  It seems
> this is true in the "broadest" sense of the word.  Today it is like
> direct link transport -- airport shuttle between the terminal and 
> 
> a group of hotels // motels.
> 
> In the days of TrolleyCar transit it may be a short ride which forces
> a transfer to get close to or to the final destination.  In the 1940s into
> early 1950s downtown Pgh. was the main focus of travel wasn't it.
> The 12-line to East St allowed transfer to go downtown.  This is a
> shuttle; the 8-line is not a shuttle.
> 
> There are alternates to providing a direct ride for all but it increases the
> wait / headway time for a considerable number.  That might be best
> illustrated via the 27 and 28 lines.  At one time the 28 line
> shuttled from outer end to the 27-line then returned to the end.  If headways
> were 15-minutes for example and equipment is reasonably on schedule
> those wanting tto transfer step off the 27 onto the 28 within a minute or two.
> If Prc didn't offer a good connection they would not have the passengers
> would they.  When they ran the 28-line downtown headways for each of the
> lines would be 30-min to allow for evenly spaced cars where track was
> shared to maintain 15-mins.  Everyone outbound of the junction has a
> potential 30-min wait.  With a shuttle, everyone outbound of the junction
> had only a 15-min wait.  Overhead costs would be very similar either
> way but the latter makes for much happier passengers doesn't it.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:18 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4366 on Nevergreen
> 
> Does not make sense, Dwight.  
> The unique portion of route 12 was beyond 
> north of East Street on McKnight Road.
> 
> Are you suggesting that because the car ran out of 
> Keating and in East Street, the fans counted it as a final route 12 car?
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Dwight Long wrote:
> 
>> Herb
>> 
>> I will give you my take on why Feb. 1954 is used, and I was there, so have some knowledge of it.
>> 
>> Rt. 12 was abandoned in December 1953—take your pick of the 5th or 6th.  That is FACT.
>> 
>> The last car to have run on Rt. 12 was the ferry car that in the afternoon of 7 February 1954 came down to Arden to return the pax who had ridden WP 832, PRC 3756 and PRC M1 to their new home at Arden.  It got quite a bit of publicity in the enthusiast trade as such, with mention that it had been the last car to run on Rt. 12 and was now the last pax-carrying car on the Washington interurban line south of Drake.  IMHO that is why the confusion arises.
>> 
>> Dwight
>> 
>> From: Herb Brannon 
>> Sent: Tuesday, 14 February, 2012 12:08
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org 
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4366 on Nevergreen
>> Here is a line from a website about Pittsburgh Rlwys Co.:
>> "1954 witnessed only one outright abandonment, with North Side route 12
>> Evergreen closing in February."
>> Here is a table from a website called "eNotes" which shows a start date in
>> '08 and an end date in '59:
>> 12 Evergreen Road via East Street  1908
>> 1959[<http://www.enotes.com/topic/Pittsburgh_Railways#cite_note-per-20>The
>> table in the booklet, "The Street Railways of Pittsburgh, 1857 - 1959" by
>> T. E. Parkinson, lists the following: 12-Evergreen - Feb 54 as the closing
>> date.
>> 
>> Makes one wonder about how accurate any history books, about any area's
>> history, really are. Why are several PRCo Rt 12 sources indicating Feb 54?
>> 
>> Now to the semantics of "abandonment" versus "last day of service"........
>> 
>> Who are "We" ?
>> From Mr. Webster:::::
>> a-ban-don -- to give up; forsake; to give in to emotion -- . a-ban-don-ment
>> n.
>> 
>> Nothing was given up, forsaken, or given in to until December 6. To say
>> ".....last day of scheduled (or) revenue service...." then that would be
>> December 5.
>> 
>> I'm sticking with December 6 for Rt. 12 "abandonment". "We" can say it
>> however "they" want.
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 08:45, Edward H. Lybarger <trams2 at comcast.net>wrote:
>> 
>>> Re abandonment dates:  We try to cite the last day of scheduled service as
>>> the termination date.  In the case of Route 12, that was Saturday, 12-5-53.
>>> December 6 was the first day without the trolleys.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Herb
>>> Brannon
>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 10:49 PM
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4366 on Nevergreen
>>> 
>>> For what it's worth:::::
>>> 
>>> *1946 PRCo Guide Routing:
>>> 
>>> 12-Evergreen
>>> Evergreen Rd at City Line, Inbound to East St, North Ave, Sandusky St,
>>> Robinson, Ninth St Bridge, Ninth, Penn to Seventh; Outbound via Seventh,
>>> Seventh St Bridge, Sandusky, North Ave, Madison, East St, Evergreen Rd to
>>> City Line.
>>> RUNS RUSH HOURS ONLY
>>> 
>>> All other times from East St at Evergreen to City Line and return to East &
>>> Evergreen only.
>>> 
>>> *
>>> Also the book Pittsburgh Railways, by R Beal, indicates the line abandoned
>>> 6 December 1953. The last car operated on Rt 12 was 4393 and it was also
>>> the
>>> last  double-end car in regular service on the PRCo system.
> 
>