[PRCo] Re: 4393 Versus 4366

Thu Feb 16 10:20:30 EST 2012

I can check the car assignment books, but they may not have been kept
exactly accurately at the very end of a car's service life.  They would show
the car's last "official" barn assignment, but perhaps not a temporary move.

Maybe Tuesday; if not then it will be into March.  I am solid with contract
work through Monday, and we leave Wednesday morning for a week in Florida.

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Phillip
Clark Campbell
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:06 AM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4393 Versus 4366

Mr.Schneider;
Car 4393 was scrapped in 1956 wasn't it.  Car 4398 was part of that group
which is possibly why it was saved; now or never time.

It was May and June when the high 4300s were scrapped.

On the matter of equipment, it shifted so much didn't it that it would
actually be difficult to pin down when a type was assigned any particular
location.  I am not finding fault with the listing in your PCC book; I
commend you for the effort.  My interest is not always piqued by these
details but someone wrote that Westinghouse PCCs were the first ones
modified for Fineview service.  The 1952 roster shows this doesn't it; I
found that roster in the files here.  Cars 1669-1674 were at Keating, the
only cars of this class at that time.  These must have been the ones
modified for Fineview.  Cars 4219, 4366 and 4374 are shown at Keating;
photos reveal it operating on Evergreen so it must have been moved to
Keating.  This emphasizes that equipment moves are often frequent and
arbitrary from our perspective doesn't it.  But Prc had a purpose.

This sounds like an assignment for Mr.Lybarger doesn't it.  He alone seems
to look from the:  "What am I missing?" perspective to find the answer.

In 1952 Homewood was pure Westinghouse PCC.  There were 52-1200s!
Homewood only had 3-classes of PCCs; other two are 16s and 17s.  South Hills
at this time had 5-classes didn't it---11s, 12s, 14s, 16s, and 17s.  All the
16s were Interurbans.

Manchester was a relatively small barn wasn't it yet it was assigned both
Westinghouse and Ge cars.

According to this 1952 roster Glenwood was strictly Westinghouse.  With
half- a-dozen car house closures following Glenwood then had a mix to
include Ge cars didn't it.  Craft at the time didn't have Ge but did later. 
It looks like a small barn but in 1952 had 109 PCCs and possibly received
more!

I always 'assumed' the Ge 17s from Ingram went to Keating in 1959.  They
didn't.
Many were in Homewood for a while.  Some time later Keating had all Ge-17s,
not long before it was closed!

Equipment apparently moved more frequently than one would assume.  "Maybe"
heavy overhaul is 'a' reason.  A car sent to Homewood for same would
immediately be replaced by another car.  This seems logical.  How often were
heavy overhauls?

Phil

________________________________
 From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:34 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: 4393 Versus 4366

After 1953 ten cars were retained for a year or so for emergencies that
never happened.   Buses were easier.   They were the 4390s.   That's why the
museum got 4398.  So after the end of 1953 I think we can assume that 4393
was scrapped pretty fast.

The person to ask would be Dave Hamley.

On Feb 15, 2012, at 9:18 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:

> That's all well and good, however, should fall under the subject of 
> Control Systems.
> I want to know where 4393 and 4366 were assigned during their tenure 
> at PRCo. I know where they were on January 1, 1952. Where were they after
that?
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 18:03, Fred Schneider
<fwschneider at comcast.net>wrote:
> 
>> Funny thing, Herb.
>> Normally cars were segregated to barns in Pittsburgh by equipment.   
>> We all knew which barns had GE PCCs and which had Westinghouse PCCs.
>> 
>> The yellow cars had a similar scheme.   There were barns that had 
>> cars with K-35 or K-43 controls.   Then there were other barns that 
>> had cars with HL control.   Same as with the PCCs, the idea was to 
>> minimize parts inventory.   And, just like the PCC assignments, 
>> Homewood was totally mixed because it was right next door to the 
>> central parts room so it didn't matter.
>> 
>> What is HL?   For those unfamiliar, HL was a Westinghouse remote 
>> control system, meaning the motorman's controller did not physically 
>> handle the 600 volt motoring circuits, it instead told a separate 
>> controller, usually mounted in a case under the car, what to do.   
>> Westinghouse used low voltage lines between the platform controller and
the motoring controllers.
>> In HL or AL, the L stood for Line voltage passed through a dropping 
>> resistor to get a low voltage control circuit.  In AB or HB, a 
>> battery was used for the control circuit.   The H stood for hand 
>> notching, a A for automatic progression.   Got it?   OK, now most 
>> Westinghouse schemes used pneumatic switches to control the actual 
>> 600 volt (or 1200 volt) circuits, and they we be mounted so that if 
>> you lost air, they would naturally open by gravity.
>> 
>> General Electric favored solenoid (magnetic) switches instead of air 
>> (pneumatic switches). Almost all of the Westinghouse HL installations 
>> in Pittsburgh were really knock-offs of GE type M control ... they 
>> were low voltage (instead high voltage with GE favored) but they used 
>> solenoid switches instead of pneumatics.  The only possible exception 
>> (and I have never been able to prove this one way or the other), 
>> those 6000 series late 1920s experimental cars might have been pneumatic.
>> 
>> OK, which barns ... Keating was supposedly a drum control barn.   All 
>>of  the single-end cars there in my memory were 4700s or 5500s in later
years.
>>   I made a stupid assumption that 4366 was therefore a K35 car.  Ooops.
>> I found a picture of it at 12 Evergreen and guess what?   I can see 
>>very  clearly, the HL contactor box under the far end of the car.    
>>What the  blanket-blank caused them to mix cars at Keating unless it 
>>was the only car  they had available to put there?  In the period up 
>>until 1951-52 when route
>> 9 also worked out of Keating, it used a 4200 and all those low 4200s 
>>that  were still active very late were HL cars also.  Roster pdf file
attached.
>> This roster also confirms that 4366 was a HL car; 4393 was a K-35 car.
>> 
>> Might be when we got to the very bitter end, it didn't matter.   If 
>> it worked, put it there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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