[PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....

[Dwight Long]

Fred

Many thanks for identifying the start date of the use of 3750s on Rt. 23.

Since Rt. 25 was just a cutback of Rt. 23, I suppose keeping its cars with 
those of 23 would be logical, although not necessary.  It did not have any 
reason to use the left hand door 3750s, which of course is not to say that 
they never received that assignment.

It is stretching my memory, but the 1700s I recall on Rt 23, and I have seen 
and ridden them, were GE cars, so your assumption that it was running out of 
Ingram at the end is a reasonable one.  Unfortunately I never had a camera 
with me when I did so.  I occasionally took the Beaver Valley Motor Coach 
bus to Sewickley and then the Rt. 23 on my periodic trips to the 
orthodontist in the Jenkins Arcade--instead of the logical P&LE train. By 
the time I started fotting trams in earnest, Rt. 23 was gone.

Dwight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 12:12 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....


>I didn't say route 23 ran out of Tunnel; I said the cars did.   Now I will 
>correct the misunderstanding.   The crews did too.
>
> The first route car entry shows route 23 running out of West Park Car 
> House (April 1, 1913)
>
> Between 1918 and 1923 entries, the form was revised and the station column 
> was removed.
>
> Low floor cars assigned Sept. 4, 1924.
>
> June 16, 1931  Moved to Ingram Car House due to closing of West Park Car 
> House.
>
> JUne 11, 1933 -- One man operation using 3750 class with left hand front 
> doors.
>
> June 30, 1934 --  Route transferred to South Hills Car House.    Transfer 
> included also route 25.
>
> Some time after the route cards were abolished in 1943, route 25 was moved 
> back to Ingram and possibly also route 23 because the known photo of 1795 
> by John Stern at Sewickley loop is a car assigned to Ingram.
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2012, at 10:54 AM, John Swindler wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I checked some of the Pittsburgh digital history maps, and yes, the 
>> curves are NOT there south to west at Smithfield and Carson.  Very 
>> strange.
>>
>> Can I go back to the beginning of this discussion?  What was the source 
>> for 23 operating out of Tunnel??  The route card???  And what exactly 
>> does it say concerning car barn assignments??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 05:17:33 -0800
>>> From: pcc_sr at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>>>
>>> Mr.Long,
>>>
>>>
>>> I beg to differ.  The 2-turns from Tunnel to and from W.Carson were
>>> not added until some time after WW2 so the cars had to go into
>>> downtown first didn't they.  These tracks came very late in the game;
>>> not long after they were added the need for the 3750s diminished
>>> significantly because all PCCs were delivered.  PCCs did not have
>>> the left door obviously; what Prc thought about the need for this is
>>> not known is it.  Here is a photo:
>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp013.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought the turns were added by 1947 but I have some photos in
>>> June-1947 revealing this is not the case.  The 2-turns may have been
>>> installed as late as 1948.  I have seen ridership statistics which
>>> reveal a peak in 1947; it seems foresight of the day thought these
>>> 2-turns would be valuable.  Almost as soon as they were installed
>>> they became obsolete didn't they.  Here is the crossover where the
>>> 32-line changed ends to and from route; this is not possible with the
>>> 3750s is it:
>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp003.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr.Swindler has already mentioned this aspect we have overlooked.
>>> Ingram was not a large facility; in these days many of the cars were
>>> scrapped by burning at Ingram weren't they.  Pictures are available
>>> of many low-floor
>>> cars, Interurbans, even 3556 at Ingram under
>>> the torch.
>>> Storage space for equipment might not be sufficient for
>>> all needs until after scrapping ceased here.  By that time, even PCCs
>>> were excess to needs.  I have seen some photos showing the cars
>>> burning; these do not:
>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp126.htm
>>>
>>> http://www.davesrailpix.com/pitts/htm/bvp127.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> W.Carson tracks remained until closure of West End didn't they.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:46 PM
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> See my earlier response on this issue.
>>> Stem times from Tunnel to Rt. 23 were either favorable as opposed to
>>> Ingram or about the same with better operating characteristics.
>>> Until the tracks on Rt. 32 were torn up, it was NOT circuitous to
>>> feed cars on and off Rt. 23 from Tunnel.  By the time the
>>> West Carson Street tracks were removed (after Rt. 32 ended),
>>> Rt. 23 was already gone.
>>>
>>> At any rate, 3750s were not needed on Rt. 23
>>> by the time frame under consideration.
>>>
>>> Dwight
>>>
>>> From: Phillip Clark Campbell
>>> Sent: Saturday, 18 February, 2012 11:29
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>>> My apologies, Mr.Swindler, I hit the reply too
>>> soon.
>>> Yes!  Low-
>>> 3750s had the door; this is already identified.
>>> The 3750s could be used as
>>> trippers to the Neville Island Loop
>>> couldn't they; many other lines had short turn trippers for rush
>>> hour service.  The 13 had the 14, 42 had 43, 56 had the 56A,
>>> 88 had the 'short.'  Apparently some cars "turned" using the
>>> cross-over where the loop was constructed for the 25-line.
>>>
>>> I too have often wondered about the 3750s being based at SHJ.
>>> How did the cars get to and from route?  That would be circuitous
>>> and add much off-route trackage and even more time as it all
>>> occurs in downtown.
>>>
>>> It is also interesting to note that the 2-turns from the tunnel to
>>> W.Carson Street were added after the war, presumably for the
>>> Neville Island route which also helped the 32-line.  Ridership
>>> reached its peak in 1947, well after the war, and a down trend
>>> could not be identified until consecutive years show less
>>> patronage.  We have the "advantage" of hind sight don't we;
>>> Prc did
>>> not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>