[PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....

[Herb Brannon]

Phillip,
FYI:::::
I have a PRCo Trolley & Bus Guide, dated June, 1937. All the routings you
gave for 12, 21, and 23 are the same in my "official" guide.
On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:26, Phillip Clark Campbell <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Mr.Long,
>
>
> Yes!  Those turns are the latter 1940s, 'very late' in the game isn't it.
>
>
> I found a "Trolley Guide," Mr.Long, so I set aside my original thoughts.
> The calendar is 2nd-half-1937 and all-1938.  The downtown loop
> for the 23-line, "at this date," is the typical West End loop on Penn,
> Stanwix, Liberty, Fancourt, and back to Penn isn't it.  According to
> Google's map it is 2.2-miles from Ingram to Corliss and W.Carson.
> In pre-dawn AM the majority would turn toward Sewickley with a
> couple heading downtown to establish service.  A car coming from
> Tunnel travels at least twice the distance to Corliss and Carson
> doesn't it.  This car needs to at least loop downtown like Smithfield,
> 3rd, Wood, Ft.Pitt, Smithfield and out W. Carson.  If the pull-outs from
> Tunnel go directly to the downtown West End loop via Grant and
> Liberty it adds extra time to get to Corliss; 15-min extra as a guesstimate
> and 10-cars make for an extra 2-hours daily just for this one move.
> I am not trying to be exact but this significantly increases costs.
>
>
> This "answer" then begs more questions doesn't it.  Why would Prc
> use Grant and Liberty to the West End loop at Stanwix and Fancourt?
> Smithfield is much shorter isn't it.  The information provided by
> Mr.Schneider suggests Tunnel operated the 23 // 25 lines from 1934
> into the mid-1940s.  Why would the double-track turn from Tunnel to
> W.Carson be built at the very end of Tunnel operation of the 23 and
> most likely after it ended?
>
> Is it possible the downtown loop for the 23/25 lines did change to
> Smithfield, Grant, Liberty, Wood, Smithfield to W.Carson for a time?
> This is very possible but would also cause public confusion.  This
> route would greatly reduce overhead for operation from Tunnel
> wouldn't it.  Mr.Dengler's picture 'hints' at this doesn't it; but any
> car on the street is "in-service" unless disabled.  The one picture
> of 3756 on the 23 at Grant and Liberty with passengers in 1944
> is interesting.
>
> It seems logical to assume Tunnel equipment needs increased with
> the 23/25 lines.  Did this force other routes out of tunnel and where
> would they go?
>
>
> This guide lists the 12-line as operating to and from downtown.  It is
> obvious Prc responds to demand.  Lower demand may see it reduced
> to outer-end shuttle; if demand increases then it is run full-length.
> The 21-line is defined with a North side loop as we know.
>
> This booklet is 3"X5.5", 60-pgs, less than half about transit, the rest
> about "medicine."
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 11:57 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>
>
> Phil
>
> I'll have to take your word for it.
>
> So you are saying that the curves between the tunnel and West Carson were
> actually built some time in the PCC era?  Meaning anything going between
> the
> West End group and the rest of the system had to transit the Golden
> Triangle, prior to their installation?  This was before my time if it
> existed.  Sounds beastly inconvenient to me, especially if one wished to
> run
> cars on Rt. 23 out of Tunnel Car House.  But, it could be done, and other
> than the congestion factor in the Triangle, would still be a more favorable
> barn than Ingram to feed cars onto the line--but not for taking them off,
> in
> the afternoon, and the reverse in the morning.
>
> Dwight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phillip Clark Campbell" <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:06 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>
>
> > Mr.Long,
> > The 50-line was based at Craft. The first curve from tunnel to E.Carson
> > is there; the 2nd curve wasn't built until the 2-curves from W.Carson
> > were built.
> >
> > I am attaching a picture of 1201 again to this email. You shall NOT
> > receive
> > the picture itself; the mail program provides a Url at the very bottom of
> > this email. Click on it to see the picture.
> >
> > Please note total absence of tracks to and from W.Carson.
> > Look at the car stop sign immediately above 1201. In the same span is
> > the frog to turn to E.Carson. It is a little difficult to see the track
> > but it
> > is
>  there.
> >
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:47 PM
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
> >
> > Phil (sent from my portable computer)
> >
> > AIR, there were double curves between East Carson and the tunnel.
> However,
> > I don't have my maps with me here so I can't verify that. But if not, how
> > would cars coming off route on 50 get to the car house?
> >
> > I'll take another look at the map later, but I think you are right about
> > the
> > lack of a straight through track on Carson. There would be no need
>  for it.
> > I think I made an error there--with respect to calling it a Grand Union.
> >
> > With respect to cars signed 23 on any part of the South Hills downtown
> > loops, that fact is not dispositive. 23 may or may not have been rerouted
> > to use one of the South Hills loops. I know nothing of this, but that
> does
> > not mean it did not happen. In my day it always used the West End
> downtown
> > loop. Assuming the base cars always did so, the cars to which you
> referred
> > could just be feed on or feed off runs and not base trips.
> >
> > We would need access to route guides or old timetables from Way Back to
> > sort
> > all this out. And it all assumes that the curves between the tunnel and
> > West Carson are some latter day installation. In my day they were always
> > there, and their use would be the logical way to feed cars based at
> Tunnel
> > Car House on and off Rt.
>  23.
> >
> > Dwight
>
>
>


-- 
Herb Brannon
In Cuyahoga Valley National Park