[PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....

[Dwight Long]

John

No, until a year or so prior to the cutbacks of the lines, it was half 
hourly until way into the evening.

Dwight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:04 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....


>
>
> Was the mid-day schedule hourly, with one car on the hour and the other on 
> the half-hour???  Then if extra cars are added during peak, they will 
> operate almost on each other's block.
>
>
>
>
>> From: dwightlong at verizon.net
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....
>> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:50:14 -0500
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>> Finleyville cars actually went to Riverview--unless they were DE Jones 
>> cars,
>> which would have been unusual.
>>
>> Another quirk which was not remedied until almost the end of service was
>> that the Washington and Charleroi cars operated right on each other's 
>> block,
>> and traversed the downtown loop together. Why they were not offset 15
>> minutes is a question I always wondered but never acquired a satisfactory
>> answer.
>>
>> Dwight
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:17 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > What would be impossible to deduce is the first realization by PRC that
>> > existing tracks at the point are going to be changed with urban 
>> > renewal,
>> > and the highway dept. was not looking favorably on putting rails on a 
>> > new
>> > point bridge.
>> >
>> > But access for scrapping sounds more immediate. The 1700s had just
>> > arrived, and perhaps a 'house cleaning' was envisioned. Probably the
>> > eventual disposal of low floor cars was much more extensive and rapid 
>> > then
>> > envisioned in 1949. Perhaps that is another question for Ed Tennyson.
>> >
>> > Speaking of Ed, at TRB last month he related how PRC would operate a
>> > Library, Finleyville (?) and Charleroi car within a few minutes of each
>> > other every half hour at peak times. Ed suggested spreading out the
>> > headway to every ten minutes instead of bunching at 30 minutes, but
>> > management would not consider it. That is until a manager moved to
>> > Bethel Park.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> From: dwightlong at verizon.net
>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....
>> >> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:17:58 -0500
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ed
>> >>
>> >> I agree with your logic, but would that not apply doubled in spades to
>> >> running Rt. 23 out of Tunnel Car House?
>> >>
>> >> So the question still remains as to why this simple expedient was not
>> >> done
>> >> at a much earlier date?
>> >>
>> >> Now go enjoy sunny Fla.!
>> >>
>> >> Dwight
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams2 at comcast.net>
>> >> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:57 PM
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Attached is PRC Track Sketch 49-019, which I copied (unfortunately
>> >> > title-less) this morning. It indeed covers this job, and indicates 
>> >> > that
>> >> > the work was closed on the books May 14, 1949. Since they would have
>> >> > had
>> >> > a major street dug up, I doubt they would have dawdled, and it would
>> >> > have
>> >> > been a Spring 1949 thing.
>> >> > Has anyone given a thought to its purpose being easy access from 
>> >> > Tunnel
>> >> > to
>> >> > Ingram so they could move cars for scrap there more expeditiously? 
>> >> > We
>> >> > don't have access to the books to know its cost, but it was quick 
>> >> > and
>> >> > dirty and would probably have cost a lot less than the platform time 
>> >> > of
>> >> > a
>> >> > multitude of operators who had to go downtown to turn around.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ed
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
>> >> > [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of
>> >> > Dwight
>> >> > Long
>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 1:32 PM
>> >> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....
>> >> >
>> >> > Phil
>> >> >
>> >> > Most interesting.
>> >> >
>> >> > Recall that my contentions were in the first place based upon using 
>> >> > the
>> >> > direct route from the tunnel to the Point Bridge on West Carson as I
>> >> > was
>> >> > unaware that the curves at the end of the tunnel were apparently not
>> >> > there
>> >> > in the 30s or early 40s (why not is a whole other question). 
>> >> > Secondly,
>> >> > I
>> >> > bifurcated my response between AM and PM feed ons-feed offs. AM cars
>> >> > would go to the Sewickley (or Graham or Fleming Park) loops when
>> >> > feeding
>> >> > on while PM cars would go to the downtown loop. For the PM cars, 
>> >> > even
>> >> > with the detour around the Union Station route via Grant and 
>> >> > Liberty,
>> >> > the
>> >> > distance is shorter than from Ingram. For AM feed on cars, Ingram is
>> >> > clearly the better choice from a stem time point of view. So, I 
>> >> > guess,
>> >> > taking both into consideration it would have been pretty much equal.
>> >> > Except that operationally the route from Tunnel, except for the 
>> >> > tunnel
>> >> > itself, is essentially flat. If you have ever ridden route 31, you
>> >> > would
>> >> > know that it is a succession of hills and curves. !
>> >> > Balance tipped perhaps to Tunnel by this?
>> >> >
>> >> > Iââ,¬â"¢m virtually sure that the reason the Union Station route 
>> >> > was
>> >> > used
>> >> > was for capacity reasons. Even in latter days of greatly reduced
>> >> > service,
>> >> > Smithfield Street was choked with trams. Right up until PAT, PRC 
>> >> > turned
>> >> > a
>> >> > number of rush hour cars at 4th Avenue (to Grant) to alleviate this
>> >> > problem. Grant Street was less used and thus better able to accept 
>> >> > the
>> >> > Rt. 23 feed-ons. Further, since they were feed-ons and not regular
>> >> > route
>> >> > cars, running them on the less-central route on Grant would not
>> >> > inconvenience riders, who would normally be boarding at the lower 
>> >> > end
>> >> > of
>> >> > the Triangle.
>> >> >
>> >> > Still, I would think the reduction in stem time by installing the
>> >> > curves
>> >> > at the end of the tunnel would have more than justified the cost of
>> >> > construction at a very early dateââ,¬â?but that assumes long-term
>> >> > plans
>> >> > to operate Rt. 23 out of Tunnel Car House. It may have been that 
>> >> > this
>> >> > was
>> >> > when instituted viewed as just a temporary measure which would not 
>> >> > last
>> >> > long enough to install the needed curves, and then it lasted, and
>> >> > lasted,
>> >> > and lasted. Not an uncommon thing, eh?
>> >> >
>> >> > Dwight
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Phillip Clark Campbell
>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, 21 February, 2012 11:26
>> >> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: 23-Sewickley & PRC assignments....
>> >> > Mr.Long,
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes! Those turns are the latter 1940s, 'very late' in the game isn't
>> >> > it.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I found a "Trolley Guide," Mr.Long, so I set aside my original
>> >> > thoughts.
>> >> > The calendar is 2nd-half-1937 and all-1938. The downtown loop for 
>> >> > the
>> >> > 23-line, "at this date," is the typical West End loop on Penn, 
>> >> > Stanwix,
>> >> > Liberty, Fancourt, and back to Penn isn't it. According to Google's 
>> >> > map
>> >> > it is 2.2-miles from Ingram to Corliss and W.Carson.
>> >> > In pre-dawn AM the majority would turn toward Sewickley with a 
>> >> > couple
>> >> > heading downtown to establish service. A car coming from Tunnel 
>> >> > travels
>> >> > at least twice the distance to Corliss and Carson doesn't it. This 
>> >> > car
>> >> > needs to at least loop downtown like Smithfield, 3rd, Wood, Ft.Pitt,
>> >> > Smithfield and out W. Carson. If the pull-outs from Tunnel go 
>> >> > directly
>> >> > to
>> >> > the downtown West End loop via Grant and Liberty it adds extra time 
>> >> > to
>> >> > get
>> >> > to Corliss; 15-min extra as a guesstimate and 10-cars make for an 
>> >> > extra
>> >> > 2-hours daily just for this one move.
>> >> > I am not trying to be exact but this significantly increases costs.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > This "answer" then begs more questions doesn't it. Why would Prc use
>> >> > Grant and Liberty to the West End loop at Stanwix and Fancourt?
>> >> > Smithfield is much shorter isn't it. The information provided by
>> >> > Mr.Schneider suggests Tunnel operated the 23 // 25 lines from 1934 
>> >> > into
>> >> > the mid-1940s. Why would the double-track turn from Tunnel to 
>> >> > W.Carson
>> >> > be
>> >> > built at the very end of Tunnel operation of the 23 and most likely
>> >> > after
>> >> > it ended?
>> >> >
>> >> > Is it possible the downtown loop for the 23/25 lines did change to
>> >> > Smithfield, Grant, Liberty, Wood, Smithfield to W.Carson for a time?
>> >> > This is very possible but would also cause public confusion. This 
>> >> > route
>> >> > would greatly reduce overhead for operation from Tunnel wouldn't it.
>> >> > Mr.Dengler's picture 'hints' at this doesn't it; but any car on the
>> >> > street
>> >> > is "in-service" unless disabled. The one picture of 3756 on the 23 
>> >> > at
>> >> > Grant and Liberty with passengers in 1944 is interesting.
>> >> >
>> >> > It seems logical to assume Tunnel equipment needs increased with the
>> >> > 23/25
>> >> > lines. Did this force other routes out of tunnel and where would 
>> >> > they
>> >> > go?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > This guide lists the 12-line as operating to and from downtown. It 
>> >> > is
>> >> > obvious Prc responds to demand. Lower demand may see it reduced to
>> >> > outer-end shuttle; if demand increases then it is run full-length.
>> >> > The 21-line is defined with a North side loop as we know.
>> >> >
>> >> > This booklet is 3"X5.5", 60-pgs, less than half about transit, the 
>> >> > rest
>> >> > about "medicine."
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Phil
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ________________________________
>> >> > From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
>> >> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 11:57 PM
>> >> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Phil
>> >> >
>> >> > I'll have to take your word for it.
>> >> >
>> >> > So you are saying that the curves between the tunnel and West Carson
>> >> > were
>> >> > actually built some time in the PCC era? Meaning anything going 
>> >> > between
>> >> > the
>> >> > West End group and the rest of the system had to transit the Golden
>> >> > Triangle, prior to their installation? This was before my time if it
>> >> > existed. Sounds beastly inconvenient to me, especially if one wished 
>> >> > to
>> >> > run
>> >> > cars on Rt. 23 out of Tunnel Car House. But, it could be done, and
>> >> > other
>> >> > than the congestion factor in the Triangle, would still be a more
>> >> > favorable
>> >> > barn than Ingram to feed cars onto the line--but not for taking them
>> >> > off,
>> >> > in
>> >> > the afternoon, and the reverse in the morning.
>> >> >
>> >> > Dwight
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> > From: "Phillip Clark Campbell" <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>
>> >> > To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>> >> > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:06 PM
>> >> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Mr.Long,
>> >> >> The 50-line was based at Craft. The first curve from tunnel to
>> >> >> E.Carson
>> >> >> is there; the 2nd curve wasn't built until the 2-curves from 
>> >> >> W.Carson
>> >> >> were built.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am attaching a picture of 1201 again to this email. You shall NOT
>> >> >> receive
>> >> >> the picture itself; the mail program provides a Url at the very 
>> >> >> bottom
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> this email. Click on it to see the picture.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please note total absence of tracks to and from W.Carson.
>> >> >> Look at the car stop sign immediately above 1201. In the same span 
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> the frog to turn to E.Carson. It is a little difficult to see the
>> >> >> track
>> >> >> but it
>> >> >> is
>> >> > there.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Phil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ________________________________
>> >> >> From: Dwight Long <dwightlong at verizon.net>
>> >> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:47 PM
>> >> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Making sense of the PRC assignments....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Phil (sent from my portable computer)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> AIR, there were double curves between East Carson and the tunnel.
>> >> >> However,
>> >> >> I don't have my maps with me here so I can't verify that. But if 
>> >> >> not,
>> >> >> how
>> >> >> would cars coming off route on 50 get to the car house?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'll take another look at the map later, but I think you are right
>> >> >> about
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> lack of a straight through track on Carson. There would be no need
>> >> > for it.
>> >> >> I think I made an error there--with respect to calling it a Grand
>> >> >> Union.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With respect to cars signed 23 on any part of the South Hills 
>> >> >> downtown
>> >> >> loops, that fact is not dispositive. 23 may or may not have been
>> >> >> rerouted
>> >> >> to use one of the South Hills loops. I know nothing of this, but 
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> does
>> >> >> not mean it did not happen. In my day it always used the West End
>> >> >> downtown
>> >> >> loop. Assuming the base cars always did so, the cars to which you
>> >> >> referred
>> >> >> could just be feed on or feed off runs and not base trips.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We would need access to route guides or old timetables from Way 
>> >> >> Back
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> sort
>> >> >> all this out. And it all assumes that the curves between the tunnel
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> West Carson are some latter day installation. In my day they were
>> >> >> always
>> >> >> there, and their use would be the logical way to feed cars based at
>> >> >> Tunnel
>> >> >> Car House on and off Rt.
>> >> > 23.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dwight
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>> >> > -- Type: image/jpeg
>> >> > -- Size: 631k (647130 bytes)
>> >> > -- URL :
>> >> > http://lists.dementix.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Track%20Sketch%2049-019%20Carson%20at%20Smithfield.jpg
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>