[PRCo] Re: Equipment questions
Phillip Clark Campbell
pcc_sr at yahoo.com
Mon Mar 5 07:57:08 EST 2012
I wrote to Mr.Holland a couple weeks ago asking about 4393 and
the ban of 1200s and 1700s on the 40-line. It seems a number of
people wrote to him about the same time on the same topics. He
provides some interesting information doesn't he.
If this comes through with many ragged edges I shall attempt to
reformat. I don't understand this incompatibility; I would like to prevent
that before I send.
Phil
________________________________
From: Holland James B. <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
To: Phillip Clark Campbell <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Equipment questions
Hi, Phil,
My apologies for the delay -- I am not much on the internet and I am cutting back even more -- Kind of Liberating. Additionally, it is taking some time to assemble thoughts and look for information. I shall work on this a few days. What's more, I may address questions not asked here. You are One of Seven People To Write WithIn Just A Few Days! I have been queried about rosters, sent copies of recent postings by several, and had more questions about brakes, drums, equipment assignments and more posed by others! Good Griefs!
Some_Thoughts as we start:
1. ImPerfect World So Rules Have Exceptions; we need to
stick to the Rule UnLess the Exception has some
Significance. Unfortunately, some // many // most like
to bog down with the exceptions which promotes endless
writing and Zilch in the way of progress.
2. Humans are "Legalists" -- some more, some less -- but
"We" like to pick at details; #1 above.
3. We live and observe through Personal Experience and
apply that to the whole. Not even an employee has the
"whole." "But I have a picture that... or ...this is
what I saw // experienced and That Is The Way It Is." A
"piece" of evidence for a split-second of time; one
piece of evidence doesn't make "proof." The more the
better.
4. Humanly, InHumanly, we want to box everything when one
box Won't // Can't contain the whole. A PCC is Only a
PCC. True -- but it also fits the Label // Box of
StreetCar, TrolleyCar, Rail Vehicle, AND Even Light Rail
Vehicle if the definition of lrv is to "Infrastructure"
only: "A system which operates electrically, mostly on
prw, ground to high-level boarding, little if any street
running." Shaker has "Always" been "Light Rail" from
the beginning -- zero street running, electric, shares
with rapid. ALL Shaker equipment can be lrv, including
PCCs, but many bristle at that! "It doesn't fit 'my'
box!" Shaker IS a Very Fine System!
These are just some examples of How Easily We Are Distracted from the Topic At Hand.
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Ban of the 12s and 17s on the 40-Mt.Washington, "apparently" includes the 21- and other lines with significant grades.
I believe "Bob" Rathke mentioned this. It could also be "Bob" Dietrich because he lived on the 40-line; he wasn't a railfan until much later, however. Bob may not take notice of which series car passed by. He is more artist. If memory serves He made a scale model of the home where he lived and needed scenery to surround it. TrolleyCars were part of the scene so his "system" grew from there. He is probably world famous for SHJ in HO! This information could have come from Ed as well -- maybe "Bob" Scanlon -- is Ed's middle name "Bob?" Maybe Harold-G. posted this with Bob Rathke giving details about the charter! Seems to be many "Bob's" involved!
Regardless, for the 1958 N.M.R.A. convention in Pittsburgh, PRMA arranged a charter with a car from each series. They knew the ban of 12s and 17s on the 40-line thus went directly to President Palmer who approved. The engineers and shop were livid but it went off without a hitch -- NO problems on the grades on Grandview. Learning Experience for PRCo!
Background: The 12s were different from all other PRCo Air-cars and Not Unlike All-Electrics -- *friction brakes were "Spring_Applied"* -- "Air"_Released. The 12s were delivered with wheel brake shoes (and NACO(?) Super Resilient wheels, a fact Not Well Known.) Some // many 12s were retrofitted with drums. Rollbacks when Stopping UpGrade Were Too Common. Additionally, should a 12 be disabled on a grade it is necessary to reach well inside the wheel to activate the brake release mechanism producing a safety hazard -- one is part way under the vehicle. To minimize these hazards the car was simply banned from lines with steep grades, 40 and 21 -- maybe others. PRMA used 5-cars of 1200-series on 4-charters -- 1253 in 1961, 1273 in April-1962, 1254 in Sept-1962, and 1257 // 1259 on 09-Feb-1964 as GoodBye to PRCo. None were on the 21; only 1273 went on the 40, this 4-years After The NMRA Charter "apparently relaxed" equipment assignments!
"From Experience" with 1200s, PRCo could be exercising caution by applying the same ban to the 17s. Rollback and brake release on disabled cars prevented 1200s from operating on lines with steeper hills -- 40 and 21. Cautiously, PRCo apparently banned the 1700s with "Spring-Applied" Drums on both the 40- and 21-lines. Revenue service with 17s on the 21-is unknown Except For Charters.
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1601s_On_Fineview
Here's where we often Git Ourselves In Trouble trying to Box something that Can't be Boxed. This came in one of the other emails from the list.
On pgs.168-169 of PCC Coast to Coast is an Excellent table of PRCo PCC routes, begin and end of service, and which barns housed them according to type of equipment. Please note one Very Important Statement under the Car House listing:
"Car house assignments are REPRESENTATIVE of 1943-1951."-[Emphasis added.] That 5th word Does Not Mean "exact" nor "exclusive" -- "Typical" might be another word. I Donut Have to read list posts to know the tone of discussions.
The 1952 roster clearly shows Westinghouse 1669--1674 at Keating (Please_Note_--_ALL other PCCs at Keating are GE.) When Boris visited he found PRCo work orders and made copies. The first work order enclosed (Oct-1951) confirms the roster; it reveals air pressure increase from 65# to 72# which helps prevent roll back on stopping for WH-cars-1669--1674. *Increased Air Pressure Makes Slower Drum Release To Prevent RollBack Starting UpGrade.* "Void" means another order supersedes this one at a later date; this First Order Was Valid And Completed As Ordered. "Photo Evidence" shows 1674 on the 21; I have seen one or two other photos in service from this group. This does Not Invalidate the PCC book; we should not waste our time discussing 6-WH cars in the otherwise-GE Keating barn. They were modified to serve a purpose for a time and fit the needs of PRCo.
The second work order shows Brake Valve Settings for All Air-Cars. The 3rd one is for conversion of All Ten_GE_1680s to replace the WH_1669_1674 cars. The 4th order reveals yet another increase in pressure For "Fineview_PCCs" to 87#~!!! A work in progress. John Swindler and I met while railfanning in the early 1960s. John himself told me about the 1680s being modified for Fineview, which was Very True at this time. Vindication!!! John didn't remember where he found this information; his neighbor John Baxter, Solid PRCo employee known to most of the list, could have told him. The chatter about 1680s on the list was endless yet didn't produce anything meaningful__NOW We Know. At this point -- If One Must Note -- Keating is totally (GE.)
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1700s_On_Fineview:
Stopping and holding power of drums on 1700s IS far more than adequate for anywhere on the PRCo system which includes the 21-Fineview. I supplied figures from producer drawings. Boris used these to determine holding power; even with 100-bodies on board a 1700 would hold on All the Fineview Hills. I don't know where that information is at the moment (most likely on an old computer.) *Stopping and Holding was Not The Problem.*
Important__Comment: *Boris:* Please "Correct," Clarify, Comment on anything I write As Necessary. Boris is listed as PCC Expert by a European trade magazine. He co-authored *Tramvaje Tatra T2,* 2005, ISBN_80-903012-7-4 when he was barely a Quarter-Century Old (Written instead of "number" since it makes him "Sound Older;" He HimSelf thinks he is ancient!) He has amazing PCC contacts In High Places around the world and has amassed PCC information which make other collections pale in comparison. He has found PRCo PCC information totally unknown to those locally. Incredibly Honest he only speaks // writes "Facts;" if a conclusion is UnKnown He So States. I have Learned Much about PCCs -- And Life -- From Boris! Solid Man; Very Easy To Trust.
*The problem is NOT Stopping and Holding with an PRCo 1700-series // All-Electric --*
*The Problem IS Releasing and Proceeding UpGrade WithOut a Rollback.*
This IS why the 1601s were modified for Fineview -- *prevent RollBack Starting UpGrade* -- *extra stopping Power Not Needed UpGrade*! PRCo had 50-years of experience with Air-Brake cars; maybe they felt it was easier to modify 1601-series Air-Cars for Fineview service. The "promises" of All-Electrics looked good but with the rollback problems of the 12s, Similar type of Spring-Applied Brake, The Railway apparently decided to be cautious with the 17s. Subsequent Experience with the 1700s may reveal a lack of problems, but once a decision is made it is difficult to change.
Boris can provide information on delayed release All-Electric drums if this is possible. It may be very easy to do. A quick release drum would allow for Roll Back UpGrade and spinning wheels as power is applied; to prevent this PRCo apparently banned the 17s on Fineview. PRCo had a Half-Century of "Air-Brake" experience and the All-Electric had yet to "Prove Itself." Working with Air-Cars was the choice of PRCo. This is their decision; we can argue it till Doomsday, ever closer, yet nothing shall change.
Informal discussion with Russ Jackson reveals the holding power of All-Electrics on "All" PRCo grades. Russ also writes that delayed release of drums on All-Electrics is possible through an interlock which also introduces problems of its own. Thus PRCo using 1601s with increased air pressure and delay release drums was very easy and Very Logical.
I operated "Baby-Tens" in SF for years. With WH B3 trucks the only difference from PRCo is Internal Expansion drums rather than External Contracting. I did not have problems Stopping nor Holding Baby Tens on Very Steep Grades in SF, 9-10% -- just using the drums to hold. Probably 90--95% of the PCCs world-wide are All-Electric; Pittsburgh and San Francisco are not the only places with steep grades.
*The All-Electric PCC Was // Is Capable of negotiating All PRCo Routes to Stop And Hold on All Grades and proved it was able So To Do!*
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This brings us to the story of the Alleged Drum And Track Brake Failure on a charter with 1707 or 1708 on Fineview. The drums "apparently" failed, the track brakes also failed, the car was rolling back while the back edge of a track brake was on the rail and edge the front was 5"-6" above the rail -- this is the claim in the original report. If this happened the operator should have stopped the car in a safe place and contacted a foreman for instructions. If it was this serious the car should have been towed // sent in.
If this is true it is One Car -- One Piece of Evidence -- #3 in the beginning above. *This "One-Car" does Not Condemn the 100.* We have already seen evidence the 17s have more than adequate stopping and holding power. This puts more emphasis on Individual-Vehicle-Defect // Operator-Error in not reporting the problem.
Because of truck construction, this extreme track brake lift is ImPossible -- maybe a couple inches. All-4-Drums may wear similarly making a car difficult to stop and hold; that won't happen with track brakes. One set of track brakes apparently held which would over rule such lifting by the other. The whole track brake is (or isn't) energized. The track brakes are designed for stopping and holding the car -- worst case scenarios are considered. Track brakes would grip the rails under any operating situation.
The Ex-SLPS cars in SF had the weird 2-pedal system -- often the Operator of a dead car being pushed did not set the heel-interlock correctly which allowed deadman application of the track brake. Getting the cars moving was difficult in spite of grade, Up or Down. With the full weight of the dead car, with the full weight of the pushing car, with the Addition of the horse-power of the pushing car -- The Track Brakes Never Lifted Off The Rails! Reset the heel interlock, track brakes release, Move On!
If the Track brakes on this Interurban charter lifted as described then they were "Not Active // Not Energized." While it is "possible" the back end snagged against a broken track joint, it was "highly improbable" for several reasons. PRCo did not have the Bestest of "track work" because of a lack of tamping on prw etc. but that kind of a gap to allow a rollback snag is highly improbable as "rail integrity" was very good -- a super bad track joint is possible but Very Improbable. Construction of the track brake would rule against snags. All edges touching the rail are beveled, slanted, tapered strongly ruling against the possibility of a snag. The enclosed picture reveals this.
This is the Only occurrence of a Non-Derailment track brake snag I have heard on any system that used PCCs.
There are more questions:::
1. Where was everyone on this charter when this happened?
1. Track brake lift can not be seen from onboard;
2. This means the car "Stopped" to let people off.
2. How then did the car roll after being Stopped?
3. Where was everyone when it "rolled?"
1. How close -- how far -- what position relative to
the car?
2. Who else saw this?
4. What was the Operator actually Doing?
1. How Much of a brake application was made?
2. Was the brake placed into emergency?
3. How is this known if everyone is outside?
4. If tech understanding was wanting, how does one know
what to ask the operator?
5. Who took pictures?
6. Where are these pictures?
7. What is the precise location of this occurrence on the
21-line?
8. The 12.16% grade is one car length in the turn from
Federal onto Henderson
1. The only reasons to stop the car here are:
1. Accident
2. Dewirement
3. Derailment
2. As an Operator I would not Voluntarily stop here:
1. Unsafe from many aspects
2. Blocks other traffic
3. Sanders over street, not over rails.
4. Need to clear the intersection to allow others
to pass.
5. Significant Friction on such a Grade And Curve
Significantly retards starting thus presenting
Real Problems.
6. Others
9. The next sharpest grade "Listed" for the 21-line is
Shared by the 8-Perrysville -- Not Exclusive To Fineview
-- 9.58% DownGrade on Perrysville, Carrington to
Jefferson. DownGrade Presents Significantly More
Problems Stopping And Holding! 1700s religiously used
on 08-Line.
10. If not This Location then other grades on Fineview not
unlike the grades on other parts of PRCo; i.e., the rest
of the Fineview line is Essentially "Normal" PRCo grades.
11. Where and HOW did the car finally stop?
1. Henderson?
2. Federal?
3. Other?
Failure on these "Normal" Grades On Fineview then suggests 17s should not be used on lines with grades over 6% and their use in the Tunnel is very questionable.
All information indicates the 17s are quite capable of safely operating and stopping on any PRCo grades. Starting without rollback might be somewhat problematic with a quick release actuator. "Knowing This" I would Sand While Stopping UpGrade so ALL wheels had sand underneath them, front and rear -- That means sanding for at least a car-length before the final stop position. IF a rollback is experienced upon brake release and power application, it shall be minimal, and the sand prevents spinning wheels when moving forward "Insuring" only a small rollback. Braking UpGrade with Spinning Wheels is Very Difficult on the Equipment and Difficult to Stop as wheels are already sliding. Releasing power to stop the spinning and reapplying when spin stops is very awkward at best and could create a RollBack as well.
The original observation of a 5"-6" lift of the track brake tells us "something:" the people are young and most of us at that age had Big eyes, little tech knowledge, and EnJoyed the Proverbial Fish Stories. It Has To Sound Spectacular! This one does -- but there are Entirely Too Many UnAnswered Questions.
A professional observation and report is needed. Lacking that it is acknowledged that drums "On This One Car" could be worn considerably. Otherwise, the Report Is Not Credible.
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I don't know about car Assignments // Shifts from barn to barn; I do realize they had to be frequent with all the PCC deliveries then Car House closings. My strong interest is PCCs so I don't necessarily keep note of the Low-Floor cars. While I thought it not necessary for an overhaul of 4393 at this late date, that is Hindsight. PRCo may know things are winding down but doesn't have a specific timetable, thus an overhaul or Homewood Inspection. Ed said that WP overhauled a car right at the end (700?) -- WithIn Weeks if not Days -- all the while knowing it is the end! So your idea of overhaul indeed sounds credible And "Relevant." Needs for DE equipment were dwindling; maybe less need in Glenwood and more in Keating. This frees up more reliable cars and the reliable ones are sent elsewhere like Keating~!!
-- OR -- How about This:::
-- You land on "Chance" while playing Monopoly, get a card which states: "Take DE-4393 from Glenwood to Keating and collect $500.00 from each Pgh. Dementia List Member -- Cash Only (Check The Ink~!!!")
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Here's one no-one asked but you might find interesting, Phil. It is generally "assumed" when the Interurbans ceased running in tandem (late 1950, early 1951?) and went to 15-min headway on Overbrook the Castle Shannon locals also ceased. This is not the case; local service to Both Shannon and W-Library continued -- also interlined. This gave 15-min service north of W-Library and 7-8--minute service north of Castle Shannon Loop! Some of the OB runs were on the 38A to prevent congestion on single track thru Overbrook. Some trains were instructed to "Hold 2-min at Bon Air." This is hard to understand because the signal system locks-in the next single track section midway in single track before the siding which then prevents opposing traffic from entering if clear! "IF" an Inspector is located at each siding and each entrance into single track from double they could give an opposing car permission to bypass a blank board for locked out track,
but that needs good coordination. I just learned this and received schedules to confirm. By 1960 schedules were reduced substantially -- no locals, half-hour headway on Sunday north of Shannon, hourly on the Interurbans.
I now wonder if local Shannon service continued until the end of Charleroi and Washington. In the final months thru Interurbans were hourly -- W-Library and Walther-Wye were also hourly giving 30-min headway north of those locations and 15-min service north of Washington Jct. Shannon locals could still provide added service to make 7-8--min headway north of Shannon -- or those cars could be extended to the Wye and W-Library to continue 15-min service there. Shall take some more digging to learn the facts.
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I hope this helps with the discussions. When responding to email lists one doesn't take time to ponder all variables but instead concentrates on one aspect which comes to mind. With time to sit and ponder it is relatively easy to formulate A Clear UnderStanding Of the overall picture. An unfortunate reality, Phil::: these comments won't solve a thing. These topics shall be forgotten and brought up as new items by the same people somewhere in the future! :-( :-)
I Had an Utterly TanFasTic visit with Boris from CZ Republic Fall-2011 -- one month. He is the Perfect Gentleman, Scholar, and Guest. We were in NYC, Philly, Boston, Seashore, Chicago, Kenosha, Pgh-twice, BSM and DC -- may have missed a few! He didn't encounter *"That Ugly American"* as he did on his first trip.
I'll tell more about the layout later with some pics. Downtown is 36'_X_22', about 15% of the space available for South Hills emphasis of PRCo in "O." Construction proceeding decently -- BUT -- just like the prototype -- the "worker" only wants to eat and sleep. Gotta keep after him!
Winter is fine -- Very Mild -- let me look outside to make sure! I shall write some time later with more news; please don't hold me to any schedule!
Best Wishes!
Jim
On 2012.02.18 10:18 AM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> Mr.Holland,
>
>
> Do you remember the discussions about grade holding
> capability of the 1700s? I remember reading this in the
> Pgh list archives but don't know if I copied that to a
> file. I can't find it now. The 1700s should be able to
> hold on any grade in Pgh. shouldn't they. There was also
> some discussion about the 1200s and 1700s being banned
> from the 40-line wasn't there until a 1958 RR charter saw
> all equipment up there. It also seems the 1700s were not
> used on the 21-line; there isn't any record of 1200s up
> there either is there.
>
> We are also wondering about the reason for moving the old
> DE equipment. It seems 4393 was in Glenwood in 1952 but
> served as the last car on the 12-Evergreen didn't it.
> Mr.Lybarger confirmed assignments to both barns but why
> would they move. I thought overhaul needs. At this time
> not many DE cars are available are they. If Glenwood
> takes 4393 to Homewood for overhaul another could be
> returned in its place the same day to meet equipment needs
> couldn't it. With the age of these cars another one could
> fail on route so spares are mandatory; a PCC can't be used
> on such a line can it. Then a Keating takes a car to
> overhaul and returns same day with 4393. It seems
> Mr.Schneider is unable to understand this concept doesn't
> it; he keeps writing about mileage between overhauls. He
> does that with all comments; his responses don't address
> the issue but go some other direction don't they. It
> seems better to pass on his posts doesn't it. Service
> needs at Glenwood may have diminished more than at Keating
> so cars are shifted for this reason aren't they.
>
> I hope you are enjoying winter Mr.Holland.
>
>
> Phil
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