[PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route

[John Swindler]

  I guess someone could claim that the interurban PCCs operated faster than the city cars, but as you pointed out, not because they had a higher top speed.  They could operate faster because they had a better tendency to stay on what passed for track work on PRC/PAT.  This is in line with F3s comparisons with European track.  But I guess this is how fables start.
 A story from a Red Arrow fantrip from early 1970s.  Harold Geissenheimer commented that he wished he could bring the PAT South Hills track crews to Media/Sharon Hill so that they could see what p-r-w-trackwork should look like.  Don't remember if St. Louis or '80' car but we were rolling at speeds impossible at PAT. > From: hrbran at cavtel.net
> Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 21:22:34 -0400
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> 
> John,
> The "fable" you speak of concerning the speed of PCCs 1700-1725 was alive
> and well when I was operating at SHJct. In fact, the guys who were former
> PRCo operators and who worked strictly on the "Interurban Division" always
> claimed that 1700-1725 could operate faster than any of the city type PCCs.
> The only thing that I ever noted was that in a city-type PCC, operating on
> the 35/36/37 private right-of-way, slower speed was required to keep the
> passengers in their seats and the car on the rails. The city cars would
> bounce and sway to the point of frightening the passengers if operated too
> fast on the open track. It was probably next to impossible in the
> 1970s/early-80s to compare the two car types do to the rail conditions.
> 
> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>wrote:
> 
> >
> >  As they say, 20/20 hindsight is perfect.  This seems to be arguing about
> > how JB interpreted what he was told and how he put it on paper.  Besides,
> > Electric Railroads was a railfan publication - it wasn't a thesis.  That's
> > not to say that Electric Railroads didn't have some good stuff over the
> > years.   But what's not in the Electric Railroads issue was any commentary
> > on the original cars assigned to Charleroi service.  No one read the local
> > paper to note the accident reports around 1906-08 in Mon Valley.   Another
> > fable was the alleged higher speed of the interurban PCC cars.    >
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> > > From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> > > Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:16:28 -0400
> > > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> > >
> > > Karl Hittle was in engineering.   But I think your point is well taken
> > from another perspective.   The writers probably gave credit to those Karl
> > because they provided a roster.  Karl was always very helpful in that
> > connection.  He ran tons of paper through the copier making reproductions
> > of drawings for me when I was a teenager.  He was wonderfully supportive of
> > the fans.   But crediting him does not say or even imply that Hittle or his
> > boss Howard Bierwith actually reviewed the text to see if any gremlins
> > snuck in.
> > >
> > > Remember the comment about reducing unsprung weight that Tom Parkinson
> > made.   There really isn't much on a PCC truck below the springs except
> > wheels, axles, axle housings, journal bearings, pinions, ring gears and the
> > portion of drive shaft weight carried on the axle housings.
> > >
> > > You would not want to increase the weight of the bolster because it
> > hangs on swing links.   Increasing that weight would cause more lurching on
> > curves.
> > >
> > > You cannot readily change the weight of the motors ... they are about
> > 695 pounds a piece from the factory.   Westinghouse made those.   Not
> > Pittsburgh Railways.
> > >
> > > That leave only the brake beams, the frame tubes (filling them with
> > lead?) and the cross members, all of which came from the factory in one
> > design.
> > >
> > > It really doesn't make sense.
> > >
> > > There is a tremendous amount of material that floated around the
> > Pittsburgh Electric Railway Club that didn't make sense .... a lot of
> > hearsay that Ed Lybarger has attempted to verify and has never been able
> > to.   Examples include the supposed line up of 830s stuck in a snow storm
> > in Greensburg on the Irwin line ... I remember Ed saying to me something to
> > the effect that, 'If that happened, would it not have been in the
> > newspaper?   He checked the Greensburg newspaper ... whose staffers could
> > have looked out their windows and seen them ... nothing mentioned.  That is
> > one of many examples.   I think a lot of the stories probably began with
> > motormen who just wanted to see how far some of the crap would spread if
> > they started it!  You know how that works ... these trolley jollies are
> > crazy ... let's see if we can put one over on them.   :<)
> > >
> > > I think, like a lot of the political things we see on the internet that
> > once started have a life of their own, this story about the extra weight
> > built into the trucks is probably another one of those stories that has,
> > over time, achieved a life all its own and even if disproved, it would
> > never go away.
> > >
> > > Brown was the president (for sometime at least) of the Pittsburgh
> > Electric Railway Club.  I think he had an EE degree.  He worked for Union
> > Switch and Signal and later for the Pennsylvania Railroad in signals and
> > communications; I think it was Penn Central when he retired.     When I
> > first met him, he lived at 341 Stanford Avenue in West View ... that was
> > when the club's members bought 832, M1, 3756 and moved them out to Arden.
> > Later, when he was with the railroad, he was living near Paoli.   He also
> > installed the first train phones on the Strasburg locomotives.   He now
> > resides on the Washington interurban right of way near Donaldson's
> > Crossroads, Washington County, in Forest Lawn Cemetery.
> > >
> > > Bartley lived in Ben Avon.  I only met him once as a 13-year-old.
> >  Bought some photos from him as late as my college years.   Have no clue
> > what he did.
> > >
> > > Dengler was a letter carrier obsessed with photographing every car that
> > Pittsburgh Railways ever owned ... up front, close and personal.    He
> > often would take a whole roll of one car if he thought he could sell them.
> >   He died before Brownie.
> > >
> > > Edward S. Miller was a delightful chap who lived in Pittston, about
> > midway between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton.  He left home upon graduation
> > from high school and worked for Con Ed in a power plant in Long Island
> > until the military drafted him.  He was in the transportation corps, U. S.
> > Army, in England in World War II.  His mom remarried and he got the heck
> > out of Pittston.  His old buddy Mike Lavelle was a motorman for Capital
> > Transit so he moved down there.   Step father died so he moved back home
> > about 1952 to take care of mother and worked for a variety of companies.
> > A couple of years ago, Ed was getting ready for church and fell ... a
> > neighbor broke in and got him to the hospital.  Ed was one of those people
> > who would do anything for anybody ... loved people.  He was the Catholic
> > who attended mass every day they had one.    He celebrated his 90th
> > birthday in a nursing home but was never the same.   Ed was one of those
> > people best described as the salt of the earth.  !
> >   !
> > >  They didn't come any nicer.
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 6, 2012, at 6:18 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> > >
> > > > Too bad none of the contributors to that article weren't either
> > Maintenance
> > > > Employees or PRCo Engineers (P.E. type).  Maybe then they would have
> > > > spelled out what they meant by, "....had some weight applied...".
> > > > On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Phillip Clark Campbell <
> > pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> John Baxter wrote the "Electric Railroads" 1952 article about
> > > >> the Prc interurbans.  This is 12-letter-sized pages.  Contributing
> > > >> to the article were 3-reporters from the "Washington [Pa.]
> > > >> Reporter."
> > > >>
> > > >> Newton E. Tucker, Albert R. Dauk, William A. Keller, and
> > > >> Karl H. Hittle from Prc were contributors along with
> > > >> Kempton F. McNutt of the Philadelphia Co. and
> > > >> Herman P. Hewitt, retired Washington operator with
> > > >> 46-years of local and interurban service.
> > > >>
> > > >> Photo credits include Robert H. Brown, Charles J. Dengler,
> > > >> Edward S. Miller, and Harry C. Bartley.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> The following is page-6, top right above the map.  This reveals
> > > >> more than I remembered and is most interesting.  I am sure many
> > > >> here have this article don't they; please verify the "facts" as they
> > > >> are quoted below:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> "In January 1946, local PCC car 1613 from Craft Ave. car house,
> > > >> with some minor body changes (fender replaced by pilot, trolley
> > > >> retreiver lowered, rear window opened, fare box replaced by Ohmer
> > > >> register, etc.) had some weight applied to its trucks and became
> > > >> the first experimental PCC interurban car.  The next month special
> > > >> St.Louis-built trucks, which had earlier been applied to PCC car
> > > >> 1278 for use on Rt. 37-Shannon, were rebuilt and applied to 1613.
> > > >> Later 10 special trucks [sets] were bought and applied to various
> > > >> PCC cars (as indicated by the accompanying roster) for
> > > >> interurban service.  Placed on the Washington route, they served
> > > >> as guinea pigs for various components later ordered for the
> > > >> 1700--1724 series of PCCs delivered in 1949 expressly for
> > > >> interurban use."
> > > >>
> > > >> "All cars in service on interurban routes are provided with extra
> > > >> equipment as follows: extra trolley pole mounted on roof, fire
> > > >> extinguisher, flashlight, trolley wire pickup, glass covered took
> > > >> kit including axe, wrenches, sledge, etc."
> > > >>
> > > >> The above is what I have written previously on the topic
> > > >> relative to 1613 entering interurban service with B2 trucks.  New
> > > >> information indicates car 1613 first used the experimental B3
> > > >> trucks in revenue service Feb-1946 doesn't it.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > http://lists.dementix.org/mlist/pittsburgh-railways/2012-05/msg00048.html
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> The complete interurban roster (mentioned above) is not included.
> > > >> Please refer to your copies of this article.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Phil
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: TEP <tompark at telus.net>
> > > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> > > >> Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 6:29 PM
> > > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> > > >>
> > > >> Sounds odd to me as we are always trying to minimise the unsprung
> > truck
> > > >> weight -- up to the point where the truck is unstable or has
> > wheel-lift
> > > >> that
> > > >> could cause a derailment. Possibly this is why, a truck designed for
> > slower
> > > >> speeds on street track, needed better stability for higher speeds on
> > "T"
> > > >> railtrack. Lighter trucks mean less wheel and rail wear and slightly
> > lower
> > > >> power consumption.
> > > >> Tom Parkinson P.Eng, Vancouver BC Canada 604-733-5430, fax
> > 604-733-5437
> > > >>
> > > >> On 04/05/2012 12:52, Fred Schneider wrote: Or does heavier simply mean
> > > >> super
> > > >> resilient wheels instead of the regular design? There really isn't an
> > easy
> > > >> way to add weight to a B2 truck unless you were to weld weight to the
> > > >> bolsteror fill the frame tubes with something like concrete. I'm
> > skeptical.
> > > >> Istill want someone to tell me how it was done rather than simply
> > tell me
> > > >> thetrucks were heavier. Phillip, where did you get this information
> > that
> > > >> weight was
> > > >> added to them? On May 4, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Derrick Brashear
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Herb Brannon
> > > > In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Herb Brannon
> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> 
> 
>