[PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
Dwight Long
dwightlong at verizon.net
Tue May 8 01:37:24 EDT 2012
John
My earlier comment about East Ohio Street (Rt 2 and 3) was of course moot by
the time (1956) that the long stretch of concreted track was installed on
2nd Avenue. It probably then became the speed lane of PRC, assuming it had
decent power and late night absence of motor car traffic.
I second the comments about Arden track being better than most if not all
PRC open track, at least in my time of remembering, which is late 50s, early
60s. I actually rode the interurban to Washington in 1946, but that was
down in a 3700 and back in a 3800, so no comparison with PCCs on the
route--plus as a 7 year old I really don't remember all that much about the
riding quality.
West Penn maintained its track much better, even up to the end.
Dwight
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 1:56 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
>
> I remember the last day of Drake where one of the PCC operators was 'pedel
> to the metel', and recalling that these sorts of speeds would have been
> impossible prior to light rail upgrade. Speaking of testing the memory
> of a 13-year old, one decent stretch in 1960s was outbound from Oak for
> several stops. Perhaps it had received some serious attention. And for
> those of us of a certain age, Second Ave. was also pretty good - at least
> the part relaid in concrete. The last mile of old track was an
> "interesting" comparison. And yes, the PTM track crew does a superior
> job. Thank you, guys, for helping to keep the cars on the track. John >
> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 16:31:40 +0000
>> From: bobrathke at comcast.net
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
>>
>>
>> I agree that most PRC PRW was probably well maintained in the 1940's, but
>> there was at least one exception. In the summers in the 40's and early
>> 50's, my family used to ride 10-West View from the North S ide to West
>> View P ark. The kids always looked forward to the stretch of PRW south
>> of Keating. We called it "The Dips" in anticipation of getting to West
>> View Park. The trolleys yawed badly on the downgrade section , and I
>> don't recall the motormen cutting back on the speed .
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 11:20:02 AM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
>>
>> I like the story about Harold wishing he could show the PAT crews what
>> the Media line looked like.
>>
>> Actually, it is my considered opinion that the museum track at PTM is
>> better than the much of the kinked rail on the Pittsburgh interurbans in
>> the period John remembered. The only part that has ever bothered me is
>> a kink along the creek leading up the hill to Arden and that is only one
>> spot in two miles. Our museum crews do a great job.
>>
>> Was it always that way? I don't think so but none of us on this list
>> are old enough to have ridden it back when it was being properly
>> maintained. Bill Vigrass might remember because he rode it in the late
>> 1940s.
>>
>> When I rode Pittsburgh and Charleroi in 1953, a motorman with whom I rode
>> all the way to Roscoe commented that PRC had just let the line go once
>> they made up their mind to get rid of it. It's difficult to compare in
>> one's brain what we saw when we were 13 with what we saw when we were 40
>> with what we rode over three weeks ago. My gut reaction is that, even
>> being "let go," the track to Roscoe in 1953 was still better lined and
>> tamped than it was in the Harold Geissenheimer era to Library and Drake.
>> Today it seems much better than it did back in the 1970s and 80s.
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 7, 2012, at 9:09 AM, John Swindler wrote:
>>
>> > I guess someone could claim that the interurban PCCs operated faster
>> > than the city cars, but as you pointed out, not because they had a
>> > higher top speed. They could operate faster because they had a better
>> > tendency to stay on what passed for track work on PRC/PAT. This is in
>> > line with F3s comparisons with European track. But I guess this is how
>> > fables start.
>> > A story from a Red Arrow fantrip from early 1970s. Harold
>> > Geissenheimer commented that he wished he could bring the PAT South
>> > Hills track crews to Media/Sharon Hill so that they could see what
>> > p-r-w-trackwork should look like. Don't remember if St. Louis or '80'
>> > car but we were rolling at speeds impossible at PAT. > From:
>> > hrbran at cavtel.net
>> >> Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 21:22:34 -0400
>> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >>
>> >> John,
>> >> The "fable" you speak of concerning the speed of PCCs 1700-1725 was
>> >> alive
>> >> and well when I was operating at SHJct. In fact, the guys who were
>> >> former
>> >> PRCo operators and who worked strictly on the "Interurban Division"
>> >> always
>> >> claimed that 1700-1725 could operate faster than any of the city type
>> >> PCCs.
>> >> The only thing that I ever noted was that in a city-type PCC,
>> >> operating on
>> >> the 35/36/37 private right-of-way, slower speed was required to keep
>> >> the
>> >> passengers in their seats and the car on the rails. The city cars
>> >> would
>> >> bounce and sway to the point of frightening the passengers if operated
>> >> too
>> >> fast on the open track. It was probably next to impossible in the
>> >> 1970s/early-80s to compare the two car types do to the rail
>> >> conditions.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 9:00 PM, John Swindler
>> >> <j_swindler at hotmail.com>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> As they say, 20/20 hindsight is perfect. This seems to be arguing
>> >>> about
>> >>> how JB interpreted what he was told and how he put it on paper.
>> >>> Besides,
>> >>> Electric Railroads was a railfan publication - it wasn't a thesis.
>> >>> That's
>> >>> not to say that Electric Railroads didn't have some good stuff over
>> >>> the
>> >>> years. But what's not in the Electric Railroads issue was any
>> >>> commentary
>> >>> on the original cars assigned to Charleroi service. No one read the
>> >>> local
>> >>> paper to note the accident reports around 1906-08 in Mon Valley.
>> >>> Another
>> >>> fable was the alleged higher speed of the interurban PCC cars. >
>> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
>> >>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
>> >>>> Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:16:28 -0400
>> >>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Karl Hittle was in engineering. But I think your point is well
>> >>>> taken
>> >>> from another perspective. The writers probably gave credit to those
>> >>> Karl
>> >>> because they provided a roster. Karl was always very helpful in that
>> >>> connection. He ran tons of paper through the copier making
>> >>> reproductions
>> >>> of drawings for me when I was a teenager. He was wonderfully
>> >>> supportive of
>> >>> the fans. But crediting him does not say or even imply that Hittle
>> >>> or his
>> >>> boss Howard Bierwith actually reviewed the text to see if any
>> >>> gremlins
>> >>> snuck in.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Remember the comment about reducing unsprung weight that Tom
>> >>>> Parkinson
>> >>> made. There really isn't much on a PCC truck below the springs
>> >>> except
>> >>> wheels, axles, axle housings, journal bearings, pinions, ring gears
>> >>> and the
>> >>> portion of drive shaft weight carried on the axle housings.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You would not want to increase the weight of the bolster because it
>> >>> hangs on swing links. Increasing that weight would cause more
>> >>> lurching on
>> >>> curves.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You cannot readily change the weight of the motors ... they are
>> >>>> about
>> >>> 695 pounds a piece from the factory. Westinghouse made those. Not
>> >>> Pittsburgh Railways.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That leave only the brake beams, the frame tubes (filling them with
>> >>> lead?) and the cross members, all of which came from the factory in
>> >>> one
>> >>> design.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It really doesn't make sense.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There is a tremendous amount of material that floated around the
>> >>> Pittsburgh Electric Railway Club that didn't make sense .... a lot of
>> >>> hearsay that Ed Lybarger has attempted to verify and has never been
>> >>> able
>> >>> to. Examples include the supposed line up of 830s stuck in a snow
>> >>> storm
>> >>> in Greensburg on the Irwin line ... I remember Ed saying to me
>> >>> something to
>> >>> the effect that, 'If that happened, would it not have been in the
>> >>> newspaper? He checked the Greensburg newspaper ... whose staffers
>> >>> could
>> >>> have looked out their windows and seen them ... nothing mentioned.
>> >>> That is
>> >>> one of many examples. I think a lot of the stories probably began
>> >>> with
>> >>> motormen who just wanted to see how far some of the crap would spread
>> >>> if
>> >>> they started it! You know how that works ... these trolley jollies
>> >>> are
>> >>> crazy ... let's see if we can put one over on them. :<)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I think, like a lot of the political things we see on the internet
>> >>>> that
>> >>> once started have a life of their own, this story about the extra
>> >>> weight
>> >>> built into the trucks is probably another one of those stories that
>> >>> has,
>> >>> over time, achieved a life all its own and even if disproved, it
>> >>> would
>> >>> never go away.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Brown was the president (for sometime at least) of the Pittsburgh
>> >>> Electric Railway Club. I think he had an EE degree. He worked for
>> >>> Union
>> >>> Switch and Signal and later for the Pennsylvania Railroad in signals
>> >>> and
>> >>> communications; I think it was Penn Central when he retired. When
>> >>> I
>> >>> first met him, he lived at 341 Stanford Avenue in West View ... that
>> >>> was
>> >>> when the club's members bought 832, M1, 3756 and moved them out to
>> >>> Arden.
>> >>> Later, when he was with the railroad, he was living near Paoli. He
>> >>> also
>> >>> installed the first train phones on the Strasburg locomotives. He
>> >>> now
>> >>> resides on the Washington interurban right of way near Donaldson's
>> >>> Crossroads, Washington County, in Forest Lawn Cemetery.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bartley lived in Ben Avon. I only met him once as a 13-year-old.
>> >>> Bought some photos from him as late as my college years. Have no
>> >>> clue
>> >>> what he did.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dengler was a letter carrier obsessed with photographing every car
>> >>>> that
>> >>> Pittsburgh Railways ever owned ... up front, close and personal.
>> >>> He
>> >>> often would take a whole roll of one car if he thought he could sell
>> >>> them.
>> >>> He died before Brownie.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Edward S. Miller was a delightful chap who lived in Pittston, about
>> >>> midway between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton. He left home upon
>> >>> graduation
>> >>> from high school and worked for Con Ed in a power plant in Long
>> >>> Island
>> >>> until the military drafted him. He was in the transportation corps,
>> >>> U. S.
>> >>> Army, in England in World War II. His mom remarried and he got the
>> >>> heck
>> >>> out of Pittston. His old buddy Mike Lavelle was a motorman for
>> >>> Capital
>> >>> Transit so he moved down there. Step father died so he moved back
>> >>> home
>> >>> about 1952 to take care of mother and worked for a variety of
>> >>> companies.
>> >>> A couple of years ago, Ed was getting ready for church and fell ... a
>> >>> neighbor broke in and got him to the hospital. Ed was one of those
>> >>> people
>> >>> who would do anything for anybody ... loved people. He was the
>> >>> Catholic
>> >>> who attended mass every day they had one. He celebrated his 90th
>> >>> birthday in a nursing home but was never the same. Ed was one of
>> >>> those
>> >>> people best described as the salt of the earth. !
>> >>> !
>> >>>> They didn't come any nicer.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On May 6, 2012, at 6:18 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Too bad none of the contributors to that article weren't either
>> >>> Maintenance
>> >>>>> Employees or PRCo Engineers (P.E. type). Maybe then they would
>> >>>>> have
>> >>>>> spelled out what they meant by, "....had some weight applied...".
>> >>>>> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Phillip Clark Campbell <
>> >>> pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> John Baxter wrote the "Electric Railroads" 1952 article about
>> >>>>>> the Prc interurbans. This is 12-letter-sized pages. Contributing
>> >>>>>> to the article were 3-reporters from the "Washington [Pa.]
>> >>>>>> Reporter."
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Newton E. Tucker, Albert R. Dauk, William A. Keller, and
>> >>>>>> Karl H. Hittle from Prc were contributors along with
>> >>>>>> Kempton F. McNutt of the Philadelphia Co. and
>> >>>>>> Herman P. Hewitt, retired Washington operator with
>> >>>>>> 46-years of local and interurban service.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Photo credits include Robert H. Brown, Charles J. Dengler,
>> >>>>>> Edward S. Miller, and Harry C. Bartley.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The following is page-6, top right above the map. This reveals
>> >>>>>> more than I remembered and is most interesting. I am sure many
>> >>>>>> here have this article don't they; please verify the "facts" as
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> are quoted below:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> "In January 1946, local PCC car 1613 from Craft Ave. car house,
>> >>>>>> with some minor body changes (fender replaced by pilot, trolley
>> >>>>>> retreiver lowered, rear window opened, fare box replaced by Ohmer
>> >>>>>> register, etc.) had some weight applied to its trucks and became
>> >>>>>> the first experimental PCC interurban car. The next month special
>> >>>>>> St.Louis-built trucks, which had earlier been applied to PCC car
>> >>>>>> 1278 for use on Rt. 37-Shannon, were rebuilt and applied to 1613.
>> >>>>>> Later 10 special trucks [sets] were bought and applied to various
>> >>>>>> PCC cars (as indicated by the accompanying roster) for
>> >>>>>> interurban service. Placed on the Washington route, they served
>> >>>>>> as guinea pigs for various components later ordered for the
>> >>>>>> 1700--1724 series of PCCs delivered in 1949 expressly for
>> >>>>>> interurban use."
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> "All cars in service on interurban routes are provided with extra
>> >>>>>> equipment as follows: extra trolley pole mounted on roof, fire
>> >>>>>> extinguisher, flashlight, trolley wire pickup, glass covered took
>> >>>>>> kit including axe, wrenches, sledge, etc."
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The above is what I have written previously on the topic
>> >>>>>> relative to 1613 entering interurban service with B2 trucks. New
>> >>>>>> information indicates car 1613 first used the experimental B3
>> >>>>>> trucks in revenue service Feb-1946 doesn't it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>> http://lists.dementix.org/mlist/pittsburgh-railways/2012-05/msg00048.html
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The complete interurban roster (mentioned above) is not included.
>> >>>>>> Please refer to your copies of this article.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Phil
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ________________________________
>> >>>>>> From: TEP <tompark at telus.net>
>> >>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 6:29 PM
>> >>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sounds odd to me as we are always trying to minimise the unsprung
>> >>> truck
>> >>>>>> weight -- up to the point where the truck is unstable or has
>> >>> wheel-lift
>> >>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> could cause a derailment. Possibly this is why, a truck designed
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>> slower
>> >>>>>> speeds on street track, needed better stability for higher speeds
>> >>>>>> on
>> >>> "T"
>> >>>>>> railtrack. Lighter trucks mean less wheel and rail wear and
>> >>>>>> slightly
>> >>> lower
>> >>>>>> power consumption.
>> >>>>>> Tom Parkinson P.Eng, Vancouver BC Canada 604-733-5430, fax
>> >>> 604-733-5437
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 04/05/2012 12:52, Fred Schneider wrote: Or does heavier simply
>> >>>>>> mean
>> >>>>>> super
>> >>>>>> resilient wheels instead of the regular design? There really isn't
>> >>>>>> an
>> >>> easy
>> >>>>>> way to add weight to a B2 truck unless you were to weld weight to
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> bolsteror fill the frame tubes with something like concrete. I'm
>> >>> skeptical.
>> >>>>>> Istill want someone to tell me how it was done rather than simply
>> >>> tell me
>> >>>>>> thetrucks were heavier. Phillip, where did you get this
>> >>>>>> information
>> >>> that
>> >>>>>> weight was
>> >>>>>> added to them? On May 4, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Derrick Brashear
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Herb Brannon
>> >>>>> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Herb Brannon
>> >> In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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